So maybe a very low pressure heat press, with long dwell time, then air and sun manual drying, ).

 

Way to go bob emb. You are a person I could sit down with and share war stories for a long time. Glad to hear Pal B. has backed you up too. You are correct about the additional costs that go along with the machine. Tough getting into this market and even tougher staying in it. Kind of like any business. Digital printing has come a long way, so far in fact that we seem to think there should be no problems. That in itself shows the advancement of digital printing. Good luck to anyone no matter what you decide to purchase. As for me I will stick with the Kornit.

 

Unless something changed since we had our machine, it is very important to cure as quickly as possible. Some companies even install an infra red "boost" prior to the shirt entering the main dryer tunnel.

If you leave a wet print sit, it fades.

 

Wouldn't a heat press be a bottle neck in production?

 

One heatpress might but 2-3 wouldn't and if you are sinking 50k into a machine I would think you could afford the 6k for nice heat presses and a few grand for electric upgrades.

 

yes, maybe Jim..
but one of the reasons why a shop like mine would use DTG over Screenprinting is for small runs, or even a 1 piece order, and hopefully, doing the job while the customer waits..
and definitely, a conveyor dryer would not fit inside our shop, and even if i could fit it in our warehouse/off-site production, i could imagine that there would be slow days when we have an order of 10 pcs or even less..and starting and stopping, and starting again a conveyor dryer would not be economical..

 

Quick tip: in my experience, the Kornit does not perform well unless it is printing continuously... If you are going to print "while you wait" for people who walk into your shop, it might be a good idea to find stuff to print, between walk ins!

 

much appreciated Justin, thanks. I've also read somewhere that there's this new cleaning fluid of some sort that Kornit recommends to install or fill up the white ink lines with if the machine is not to use white ink for a prolonged period of time. I'll try to find the article again.

Yeah, much like in embroidery, it would be "profitable" and "good maintenance practice" if you can find stuff to print between walk-ins. Maybe finally create a t-shirt line so that you can print continously.

Is the automatic purging not enough for good maintenance?

 

Not applicable to this new Breeze but I'll add here, from Kornit's website:

White Ink Substitute Material for Light Garment Printing
The white ink substitute material is a preservation fluid which replaces the white ink bottles when using the machine in a "CMYK only" mode for more than 2000 prints.

Who can use this material?
Kornit Storm 931-8 (931DS) and Kornit Thunder 932-6 (932NDS) customers with degassing system installed.

Why do I need this material?
When using the Kornit machine for light colored garment printing – thus using only CMYK inks, the white printheads continue to participate in the heads maintenance purging sequences. The substitute material is used instead of the white ink for the same sequences, by that reducing the usage of white ink, increasing cost-efficiency for each print, and maintaining the white print-heads in a good condition for the long term.

 

Seems ok if you are going to drop dark garment printing for a few days.... But for people doing "print while you wait" applications, you never know if someone is going to walk through your door in ten minutes or ten hours; your machine could be sitting there idle, and it doesn't take long to have problems. As I mentioned above, my employees often times could not even go to the bathroom without experiencing printing setbacks upon their return.

I would really like to believe that Kornit has stepped up their game; but ya know what? There were guys saying that same thing to me when I bought my machine: "It never worked right for me, but hey, maybe Kornit finally got it together". I bought anyways, and I got what I deserved for ignoring many, many past users who had tried to warn me! For me, it would take much more than simply seeing a Kornit printer working well at a trade show, to convince me that they've pulled it together.... Trade shows and short demos can be very deceiving. I would need to watch someone print on a Kornit printer ALL day long, with less than a 3-5% misprint ratio on darks and NO banding, for me to believe they have changed their ways and seriously improved their machines.

 

I like the new names for the Kornit printers - Storm, Thunder, Breeze.... can't wait for the HURRICANE and TORNADO!

 

The HURRICANE and TORNADO are what happen, after business owners realize that their huge purchase is sinking their business.... That's the backlash! haha.

Seriously though; I don't rule out the possibility that any company can change their stripes. Nothing is concrete in this industry, and my opinions are constantly evolving. There have been many changes in the Kornit camp, in the past year, which will no doubt effect current and future owners in a positive way (Paul B. stepping it up at the North American office, remote login to your machine by actual Kornit techs, etc); perhaps this is a sign of tangible improvements to the Kornit line? Time, and brutally honest machine owners, will tell.

 

I like the new names for the Kornit printers - Storm, Thunder, Breeze.... can't wait for the HURRICANE and TORNADO!

Just came across this old post of Mark, and I can't help but smile because Kornit just relased THE AVALANCHE 951 printer.

 

From my experience, Kornit has improved significantly...

We had quite a few issues when we started with our first Kornit. But Kornit responded well and I was seldom down for more than a day or two. I think my longest was 6 days but they were working with me for hours and hours trying to diagnose a strange electrical issue and they ended up sending me a huge assortment of electrical components and I just swapped them all out and I was finally up and running.

Since then they upgraded the white ink to v201. It's been great for us.

They did a major upgrade to the software that changed the way the passes of ink are printed onto the garment and the purging and wiping parameters eliminating many of our Kornits issues.

We stopped tinkering with internal print control settings trying to make the machine work faster about a year and a half ago. For quite a while, before the new software, many Kornit owners would adjust internal setting to try too fix banding and head clogging issues and to try to make the machine print faster to meet posted production rates. Many of those changes ended up causing issues for us owners. Don't get me wrong Kornit had lots of problems but we also created some for ourselves.

Since these changes I have bought an additional Kornit (used) and now have both a 932NDS and a 931D. I love these machines. I still have occasional issues, maybe every 3-6 months. But for the last year and a half I have been able to fix the problem by simply talking to tech on the phone and making minor repairs. ( adjusting a pressure, fixing a broken wire etc )

Don't buy these machines if you are mechanically inept and unwilling to work with a tech on fixing little issues when they come up.

My machines definately don't run as fast as they were supposed to but that is in the past and there is nothing Kornit or I can do to change that. I was an early adopter and early adopters often pay a bit of a steaper cost to be there. Go to a show and time actual prints. I think that the posted numbers are now quite accurate. I think the issue with the old numbers that Kornit use to promote was based on lower print qualities that no one in North America would have been happy providing.

Of all the Kornit owners that I have known Justin's experience has probably been by far the worst. In the early days many of us had a variety of problems. Justin was unlucky enough to have experienced every one of them and often repeatedly, that's not to say that Justin was the only one to have lots of problems but I think he would agree that his experience was miserable. But it is a new day and my experiences with Kornit have continued to improve.

 

Of all the Kornit owners that I have known Justin's experience has probably been by far the worst. In the early days many of us had a variety of problems. Justin was unlucky enough to have experienced every one of them and often repeatedly, that's not to say that Justin was the only one to have lots of problems but I think he would agree that his experience was miserable. But it is a new day and my experiences with Kornit have continued to improve.

I was with you 100%, up until this paragraph. I used to speak to Kornit owners all over the country, when I owned my machine, and I can tell you that my problems were NOT the worst I had heard about..... Ask Nicky (sp?) what she thought about her Kornit printer, that was down for months on end while Kornit made promise after promise to fix it; I even connected her with Bob's tech guy while I was in New Jersey watching HIS machine get fixed (power supply went bad), and then tried to connect her with Paul B.; I don't believe her problems were ever resolved. So, while I leave room for the very real possibility that Kornit has made tangible improvements to their products, I would not be so quick to discount the range and scope of problems that actual owners were, and possibly are still experiencing. I could list off several others who were in the same boat as me, but it would serve no purpose.

 

At the New Orleans show they previewed a beta "Breeze". The Breeze will be launched at Long Beach ISS. I was told they are not shipping yet but are making a list for thos who want to be first. Look for cartridged ink in the Breeze. Possibly with a higher ink cost than the rest of the Kornits. The Linear Magnetic drive motors are gone and replaced with stepper motors and belts to drive the boards, these are much cheaper. The machine prints slower than the other Kornits but that could simply have been the Beta. Smaller print area (can't remember size).

I will post more after the show when I get a good look at it.

At the New Orleans show they also were showing a new dryer from hix. It was an upright bank of drawers. You opened the top drawer and layed you rshirt in then closed it. Then in sequence you filled the rest of the drwers the same way. In theory when all the drawers are full the top onw is ready you remove it while the next shirt is printing and when the print finishes you put the newest shirt in the available drawer. Kind of weird but because it was stacked is had a smaller foot print ( maybe 4'x4' x 7' tall with blower moters etc. It was electric and moved a lot of air. Will take a better look this year if it's at iss.

 

The Breeze looks really nice. We certainly would consider one. I would really like to see a satisfied group of customers first.

And by satisfied, I mean satisfied. Not...we only have to fix it once a month satisfied.

I really hope that folks are honest about their experiences as they are happening...right Justin...?

 

I don't know how long it will be before Digital garment printing with white ink will be able to meet your requirements for satisfied. Not trying to be mean or bitter, just saying that we are still only about 5-6 years into this whole endeavor and there is not a clearly defined optimal system. By system I mean, ink + pretreat. Right now we have companies all pushing technology specific to their system, so if their system is doomed to fail then some of their breakthroughs are worthless.

I just hope that the Breeze is what it looks like, a simplified machine that works better because there are less systems that can fail.

 

Indeed.... As it has been mentioned many times before, some users resist being completely honest about their experience for quite some time, often for a variety of reasons. Sometimes, it's embarrassment after spending so much money on a machine that doesn't work right. Other times, it has to do with the very real fact that telling the world your machine doesn't work well, certainly isn't good for business! I remember a 932 owner telling me how awesome his machine was, until I told him that I used to own one and all the issues I had with it; of course, his story changed drastically after he heard that I had experienced many of the same things they were going through.

The best bet is for each person to make their own decision, based on what they discover through their own individual research. Get your hands dirty, and actually spend some time printing on whichever machine(s) you are considering, to get a feel for how they will work during normal production runs. Like Jim, I am intrigued by this new Kornit Breeze, mostly because it prints the color WHILE the white is still printing (at least, that's the way it appeared in the video); it's about time someone implemented that on a machine!

As always, each person's experiences will be unique to them; hearing personal reviews of the machines are helpful, but never forget to make your own decisions based on YOUR personal observations, not the observations of others. The Kornit is a prime example of how some people seem to have loads of problems from beginning to end, while others seem to have smoother seas to sail. Regardless, continued improvements on the part of the manufacturer, distributors, etc, will certainly benefit everyone involved!

 

I think Rob and Greg are satisfied... Jim and Justin are not... and Zhenjie does want to try but thinks & expects that he won't be!

 

I totally agree with Greg. We have a 932 (Serial # 50). In the begining we had problems, since we upgraded to the 201 ink, new print heads and new software the machiine has run flawless. My print techs used to dread printing dark shirts, now they look forward to it.

 

They told me that the $12,000+ "Upgrade" (read: FIX) for the 932, which enabled v201 white ink printing, would solve all of my problems as well.... It didn't. I guess it worked out for some, but not for others! Sure, the machine printed much better for awhile; but that didn't fix the rest of the issues with the machine. Too bad, too..... That v201 white ink looked incredible, and was incredibly elastic! I would have loved for my machine to print better, after spending all of that additional money to replace the print heads, software, etc. Like Jim said, one of my biggest issues with Kornit was their lack of honesty; every time something went wrong on our machine, they had "never seen this problem before!" This was odd, as I would talk to many other Kornit owners who had experienced the exact same things in the past. Of course, Kornit is not the only company who does this..... I think there should be a LOT more honesty in our industry, and everyone's lives would be much less stressful.

I have heard that the Breeze uses different inks than the 931 and 932.... Does anybody know if that is true, or are they the same inks, only in cartridges?

 

I got the 921 leaflet and from what I read: new heads ,resolution up to 600x1200, inks seems to be the same and and no info on cartridged inks, also not defined on the leaflet but Air curing must be recomended because I have been offered a cabinet air drying system with the printer. Exact price not available yet, but around 55.000$, also there is no delivery date estimates, it says Q2 2010. RIP optional so add $$. It will be showing in europe in a couple of fairs trhoughout february, so by the end of next month this machine willl have had some more exposure, so we'll be able to talk about it with more first hand experience.For now I'm interested.

 

I'm possibly considering a a $50K Kornit Breeze for my Small Clothing Line.

OK!

I'm fresh back from ISS Long Beach and the wonderful T-Shirtforums.com meetup dinner after the show. All I can say is Thank You Rodney for this wonderful board, and the generous all you can eat Banquet/Dinner!

So I bee-lined to the Kornit Booth at 10am, and spent a good 2+ hours printing 2 of my designs, which I'll post pics later. I saw the $55k Breeze. I found it interesting that the Kornit people steered me towards the $90K show special 932NDS single machine. This was mainly due to the "Bullet Proof" known entity of the tried and truely improved 932NDS, and that the New Breeze, though fully functioning was in the "1 up" prototype state.

As Jason posted, the Breeze has all of the components of the 932, but has less expensive components, like the step motors and a "similar, but lower grade head"

I also learned that the heads for the Kornits are a WHOPPING $3,000 each!! x 6!!! Youch!!

It seems like the industrial Kornit is in this realm of 10K Pocket change Corporations, expected by it's owners, quite able to spend the extra $35k over the Brother 782, or the Kornit Breeze...

That said, my conclusion for the Kornit Breeze is that it is like a new, cool Volkswagen Model, good enough for most, where the 932NDS is like a tried and true 911, bulletproof, awesome, etc., and loved by it's owners.

...To buy a Kornit at this moment, it seems much wiser to get the tried and true Kornit 932NDS over the Breeze. Especially since it is brand new. They duly informed me of the periodically available $65K range 932 Refurbished up to 932NDS models which might ultimately be the best choice...

The shirt are pretty good, and the Kornit people were great, and answered all my 74 questions.

After finishing up there, we walked the right half of the room, taking the opportunity to touch and feel Hopkins and Vastek Manual pressed and drummed a few stretched screens.

We later went to the Brother Booth as planned and we did the same 2 designs on the Brother 782. Amazingly, I thought the Brother Shirts were better! They were "Spot On", absolutely perfect and looked exactly like the professionally printed 5 to 14 color silkscreened shirts I have racks of in the warehouse. Wow!

There was a sharpness in detail, clean and smooth solid color areas in both the spot design and the continuous tone designs I brought for both of them to print. The Brother shirts popped like silkscreens while the Kornit shirts were a good percentage duller. The hand on all of the shirts are nice and soft, with 1 pass of white done for all. All shirts were put through a conveyer dryer. Again, I'll post pictures so you can see. I'm sure I could go back to the Kornit Booth and they would optimize the designs to all look great, but the Brother were "spot on".

My conclusion after all of this is to start my "DTG Revolution" by having 2 outside companies (1 Kornit, and 1 Brother) print small quantities of 2-4 designs and introduce them into my line. When it gets to a point where I want my own machine, I will then buy it!

 

Thank you for the update Matt.
Makes me wonder:
there must have been something you saw or realized that made you "delay" your DTG purchase....
care to share?
I'm thinking that it has something to do with the Breeze being at the "1 up prototype state (though fully functioning)", and the "similar but lower grade head"?

 

Actually it's none of the above.

I really do want a Kornit, or a Brother! I am very excited to be able to offer via DTG, a percentage of the 700 plus designs I have under license. I am thou, very wary of a huge $78,000 investment along with additional ink costs, pretreatment costs, along with the never unenjoyable cost involved with "fighting the bear".

This has nothing to do with the Kornit Breeze not being ready, nor the quality of the Kornit vs Brother Samples. I think the key is that these 2 machines can produce the quality I need.

My initial conclusion, is to "try out a few designs" with a local Brother 782 and a local Kornit printer.

I'll gladly waste the extra $2-4 per print over ink and lease costs times the first 200-500 shirts. It just seems wiser to waste this $500 - $2000 "fee" that it will cost to have someone else print the shirts. I'll get what I need. I know there is a real loss of the instant flexibility that my own DTG can offer, but I hope that within a month, I'll be able to offer long sleeves, short sleeves, Workshirts, wife beaters, boy beaters, etc, and have them printed within a few days.

In addition, I'll have no expensive learning curve. I'll also feel good supporting someone who has made the commitment by giving them some business.

When it seems obvious that I need my own machine, I'll do it!

 

Hey Matt,

We also looked at the Breeze and got a couple of samples.

However, here's what didn't make sense. The Breeze is an entry-level printer, obviously designed to compete with the Brother-782. However, the base price of the Breeze ($55,000), does not include their rip software ($1300.00), freight from Israel ($4000.00), the computer (??), or the free ink they are providing with the 932 show special/package. Also, I was told that ink prices to Breeze owners will be slightly HIGHER. So consumables for the Breeze will add up over the life of the printer faster than the 932 (albeit MUCH less than the GT-782).

The 932 includes their rip software, freight (perhaps they have a bunch of 932's here in the USA already), a computer and free ink (5 liters?) all for the quoted $90,000.

Now, with all that being said, the print from the Breeze is so much softer than the GT-782. One sample is around 10"x12" and has a very light hand.

Nice printer, but I'm interested to see the final package price once the printer is released later this year and the bugs are OUT!!

Eric

 

Hidden cost go figure Ha.
In reality, you'd be spending $60 thous for printer, 5 thous for tech, and 6 thous for heater, and few thous for electrical for Heater.. not so entry anymore huh...

Was Brother Prints Heat press cured or Conveyor Eric, I think that would of made a big difference.
The most important thing in my opinion is customer service, my dealer is about an hour and half away and are on top of there game, Kornit well depends where you are located and if a Tech. is available to answer questions.

Reliability is another big concern, what a 100k paper weight good to anyone and many thinks this thing is gonna be the bomb, when no one know jack about except what bullsh*t dealer is telling you.
Come on you gonna believe company ? Yawn... I will hold my breath on that one... They will prob. tell you it prints hundred dollar bills if it was to get you motivated to buy it.

In all honesty Brother is only company that didnt pull my strings, said very reliable, has issues with dark blues and purples but can be fixed if you do art properly and ink cost was spot on ... Kornit seems to have a few skeletons in their closet of secrets

Unless these companies get cost to do darks down to about $1.50, it is just a loosing battle for larger orders and simple jobs you'll loose to screen printing.

 

I went to the Long Beach show looking to add a DTG printer to our established (20 year) embroidery business. I have learned to go with established companies when dropping major dollars on equipment. Kornit and Brother were on the top of my list. I was flat out disappointed at the Kornit booth. I'm sure they make some great machines, but the Breeze was a let down. I saw better print quality from machines costing less than 20k. The sales rep said the machine still needed to be "dialed in". Perhaps he was correct, but isn't that something you do before the show when introducing a new product? Also, when the rep sensed I was not impressed, he was quick to write me off and not offer to have the settings tweaked for a second review. To me this speaks volumes about the kind of service I would get after the purchase. I think I'll pass. My experience at the Brother booth was quite the opposite. They thoroughly went over the machine. We cured printed shirts on both a belt dryer and a press. We had an extended conversation about print heads, maintenance, printing cost and anything else that came to mind. When I had questions the salesman was unsure of (I liked it when he said he did not know the answer) he brought over some who could answer correctly, instead of B.S.ing his way through. Although I have yet to sign the dotted line, it looks like I may be getting a 782. Anyone else had the same experience or opinions between the two machines?

 

There is discussions on 781, this thing aint out yet so its all hearsay at this time.
Brother as a company as been awesome experience for me so far, dont got 781 but 541 : )

 

Thanks Eric.
Yes,I also think that the base price should include their inhouse RIP and a set of inks - I beleive this is the industry standard similar to when buying wide format printers from Roland, Mimaki, etc. The freight cost and the PC are the acceptable add-on cost.

 

Response to a couple of questions:

I have samples printed on the GT-782 from every major show (including SGIA), run through tunnel dryers and heat-pressed, as well as samples from the Breeze, 932, etc. The Kornit prints have a much lighter hand, even after the GT-782 sample is washed. It's the difference in ink felt even when the 782 print is tunnel cured.

iTiki: Most of the images printed at the shows are tweaked to look good. The samples I got from the Breeze were great, with the purples REALLY looking good. However, the Brother folks are one of a few who will print your image at the show (assuming they have time and a buyer who is serious). There was one Israeli rep that was very rude to my wife and I, but it was made up for by a very knowledgeable USA rep who seemed to offer direct answers to my direct questions.

Back to the Kornit Breeze:

Because the Breeze has the pretreatment process built-in, the prices of the printers are comparable up until we get to the Kornit Breeze "extras" and the dryer needed. But, I'd be willing to pay more up front for a printer & dryer in order to avoid the time to prep the shirt and pay less in consumables over the long run.

Here's an example:

My two samples from the Kornit Breeze cost approximately $1.50 each. Since that is what the sales rep told me, let's add a dollar to his price making it $2.50 .

Kornit Breeze:
$2.50 - for a 10" x 12" full coverage print.

Brother GT-782:
$3.57 - Based off ink prices from this complaint thread and this thread where Mark asked what we felt a fair ink price was ($5.00 for 12" x 14", then adjusted to 10" x 12").

The moment the platen exits the printer there is a $1.00+ per print difference in consumables. That adds up fast when you are in production mode (assuming your printer is working properly).

Eric

 

Thank you (can't seem to click the "thanks" button... i may have run out of thanks to give away)