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Saati PHU Emulsion not adhering

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Old January 30th, 2015 Jan 30, 2015 12:33:27 PM -   #1 (permalink)
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Default Saati PHU Emulsion not adhering

Hey guys and gals,

Our shop is experimenting with water based inks. A very awesome member of this forum literally walked me through his method and types of products he prefers. THANK YOU SIR. We really enjoy printing with W.B. and our clients love the option.

So, Saati PHU emulsion was suggested. I've dialed in the exposure time to 4:15 when coated 1/2 on 160-180 mesh. Then I post expose. The Saati has a nice consistency and shelf life but still working on coating evenly :/ (new at using the round edge of the coater)

Our temp is about 75 and humidity 40 in the shop.

So my issue is.. For any stencil that has distressing or small isolated areas of emulsion, they tend to blow out or do not adhere, or half of it will peel off. Sometimes I can pick it off with my fingernail. But within that same stencil, any solid thick lines such as bold fonts or shapes appear to be exposed correctly with no flaking. Furthermore, any stencil that does not have small detail exposes correctly and I've printed with dozens of times.

This happens with or without pressure washer. I always abrade new screens, degrease and rinse properly. Just not sure what the problem is?

Am I missing a troubleshooting aspect or something I should know about this emulsion? Can you over rinse or over saturate this emulsion?


HIFI example with distress exposed today


Saati example with missing distress exposed today



Thanks!!! Nik
 
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Old January 31st, 2015 Jan 31, 2015 9:11:41 AM -   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Saati PHU Emulsion not adhering

Hey Nikki,

Glad the WB is working out. I knew you'd love it.

I have never had that issue with the PHU. I bet you have a better exposure unit than me though, and my exposure time is right at 90 seconds on the Ryonet 25x36 exposure w/compression lid. So 4 minutes seems real high. Of course, I'm making assumptions about your exposure unit being better than mine, so...

Guess the first thing I would do if I was headbanging against the wall is try a 1/1 coating of the PHU and see what happens? Maybe you have already though.

I believe in the literature for PHU it mentions that it may LOOK correctly exposed w/the stouffer but maybe it's not.

My brain is kinda fried from moving the shop this week, but if the other emulsion is working fine, then maybe that is the one you stick with? I mainly use the PHU and do a 2/1 for durability because I'm not reclaiming - like for a long, long time and some screens never get reclaimed - and some screens will see hundreds of washouts (which is where I find the emulsion takes the biggest beating). I just prefer working with PHU and it works well with me. If that makes any sense at all? Maybe you stick with what is working and if you want to make it extra durable for repeated washouts, you add a hardener?

I add reclaimable WB hardener to all screens now.

I know Sean uses PHU as well and his brain probably isn't fried. So maybe he will chime in?

For the record, I never abrade. Just degrease, dry and go. And one of the reasons I personally really like PHU is because it holds detail better than other emulsions I've used. Plus the durability thing.
 
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Old January 31st, 2015 Jan 31, 2015 11:12:03 AM -   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Saati PHU Emulsion not adhering

Hey Andy... thanks for chiming in. I figured you were still busy. Where did you end up moving the shop to?

In regards to the "other emulsion".. its not for W.B. or discharge. Just using it as a reference for detail loss. Deff need a water resistant emulsion. We tend to reclaim screens at least 2-3 times, so not sure if adding the hardener is economical for us. We tried that a few times and had to toss the screens. Couldn't get the emulsion to release. I really want the PHU to work.

I have tried a few step tests and get about 4mins but always started over 3 mins. Good to know about the stouffers. I'll revisit that soon. Try a 1-2 min exposure. Maybe my bulbs need to be replaced? I'll try a 1/1 also. Thanks for the advice.

AND! I had another issue just today.. Printed about 50 W.B shirts front and back (same screen). then I taped off an area (shirt side) printed the fronts and when I pulled the tape, the emulsion peeled right off. This came from the Same batch of screens I coated 3 days ago with detail loss (previous images).

Does that sound like overexposed to you Andy? How could it peel off like that?

Super wierd..




Tape with emulsion peeled off from screen
 
 
Old January 31st, 2015 Jan 31, 2015 12:07:30 PM -   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Saati PHU Emulsion not adhering

What kind of exposure unit are you using???

According to my supplier, the PHU will expose very quickly. I am currently using the Grafic PU but got some samples of the Textil PHU. They told me that the PHU will expose about 2 times faster then the PU. Both are a photopolymer by the way.

I'm using a 5000 watt Metal Halide and I'm about 12 seconds using the Grafic PU, so I expect to be somewhere around 5-8 seconds with the PHU.
 
Old January 31st, 2015 Jan 31, 2015 1:42:27 PM -   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Saati PHU Emulsion not adhering

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeron
What kind of exposure unit are you using???

According to my supplier, the PHU will expose very quickly. I am currently using the Grafic PU but got some samples of the Textil PHU. They told me that the PHU will expose about 2 times faster then the PU. Both are a photopolymer by the way.

I'm using a 5000 watt Metal Halide and I'm about 12 seconds using the Grafic PU, so I expect to be somewhere around 5-8 seconds with the PHU.
Hey Jeron, Thanks for replying!!!! We have a vastex e-4731. I have to be honest, I have not spent much energy learning about our exposure unit. Specs say 40 watt bulbs x 12 bulbs. How would that compare to your unit in regards to exposure times?

I've been using HIFI photopolymer for 1.5 years and I've dialed in 45-50 seconds exposure. 5-8 seconds for PHU, did I read that correctly?????? : )



Screen Printing Exposure Units - EXPOS-IT - Ultraviolet Screen Exposing Units
 
Old January 31st, 2015 Jan 31, 2015 2:13:04 PM -   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Saati PHU Emulsion not adhering

loss of detail is under exposure or screen prep. I can see edge loss which indicates underexposure. as far as the peeling. that can happen even with proper screen with water base. my recommendation here would be to clean screen and let it dry before pulling tape. Ill guess you pulled tape shortly after printing

Emulsions are water resistant not water proof. I have used hardeners(CCI) with the PHU and just a light coat or some vinegar. was little harder to reclaim. I think this also play into what emulsion remover you use, I use Saati ER-2 now and it is the fastest remover I have ever used. The franmar Stripeedoo is the next in line, all the others I have tried were much slower and a lot of work was involved and if a hardener was used a lot of scrubbing and power washing was needed.

Are you using a Blacklight unit? Age of bulbs? climate you are in cold? if you are in a climate under 60F it could be the lights are under outputting when cold a 5-10 min warm up of the unit will fix the problem.

Im using LED 100W to expose and 30sec- 1 min depending on stencil thickness. the extended time is due to me distance from the screen as I am using a single source LED so to get full coverage I had to go about 24". I have built 2 LED retrofits for the 25x36 Ryonet units. one is using dual cure and is saying about 45 sec and the other is using Saati Phu and says 10-15 sec and 30 sec with a 75 micron stencil which is real thick. I do all my direct screens a 2/1
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Old January 31st, 2015 Jan 31, 2015 3:03:47 PM -   #7 (permalink)
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Default Saati PHU Emulsion not adhering

Nikki I moved to West Hills still Los Angeles for a couple more years.

Sean is right sounds like underexposure. The only time I've had any stencil weird out on me with WB is in the washout after printing and I got a bit aggressive with the scrubby pad.

Never had it peel off either.

I know you're in Florida correct? Might be time to try new bulbs? Not a bad idea to have on hand anyway. But 4 minutes with the phu is a real long time.

A warerbased RECLAIMABLE hardener is what I use. kiwo. But if you're only cleaning and washing out a couple times before reclaiming with the phu and you do a good post exposure, probably not necessary imho.
 
Old January 31st, 2015 Jan 31, 2015 3:53:40 PM -   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Saati PHU Emulsion not adhering

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFrancis
Hey Jeron, Thanks for replying!!!! We have a vastex e-4731. I have to be honest, I have not spent much energy learning about our exposure unit. Specs say 40 watt bulbs x 12 bulbs. How would that compare to your unit in regards to exposure times?

I've been using HIFI photopolymer for 1.5 years and I've dialed in 45-50 seconds exposure. 5-8 seconds for PHU, did I read that correctly?????? : )



Screen Printing Exposure Units - EXPOS-IT - Ultraviolet Screen Exposing Units
with your unit you should be approximately 45-1:30 it looks like the Satti is a much thicker stencil then the Hi-fi which it is a thicker emulsion with a 4% higher solid count then the HiFi. The expose almost exact time with the same stencil thickness on my exposure unit although its been 1-2 years now since I've used the HiFi and about the same time quit using a blacklight unit like yours.
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Old January 31st, 2015 Jan 31, 2015 4:09:27 PM -   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Saati PHU Emulsion not adhering

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFrancis
5-8 seconds for PHU, did I read that correctly??????
Yes but that's just speculation on my part right now. Right now I'm using Grafic PU and my times are anywhere from 10-17 seconds depending on screens and coating using a 5000 watt metal halide. My supplier says the Textil PHU will be quite a bit faster then the PU.

I haven't tested anything yet though.

I agree that it is probably under exposure causing your problem.

Thanks,
Jeron
 
Old January 31st, 2015 Jan 31, 2015 6:42:30 PM -   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Saati PHU Emulsion not adhering

Florida ... How do you dry the screen before exposure? Perhaps it is not actually dry enough to expose properly. Not sure if the PHU would be harder to dry than HiFi, but I can't imagine PHU being under exposed at 4:15 on that unit.

Does your film stick to the screen a bit?

PHU is really thick. My first attempts with it came out needlessly heavy, so might give 1/1 a try. Overly thick emulsion is more prone to not drying all the way through.
 
Old January 31st, 2015 Jan 31, 2015 9:26:16 PM -   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Saati PHU Emulsion not adhering

if your Hi-Fi is drying then the Saati shouldn't be a problem, it nowhere as bad to humidity. With that said I dry all my screens with a dehumidifier on, you can get contact moisture meters anything below 40% and should be good. the thicker the stencil the longer it takes to dry but I make my own Cap film stencils up to 100 micron which is a thick stencil. I coat with a 2/1 and let dry. I have a 3-4 monster coaters, 1 set at 45 micron with the original coat it comes out to about 50 micron even though is thicker then 5 micron, the others are set at 25 micron and 50 micron. I wont do more then 50 micron at one time before let drying or it takes 2 days to dry, otherwise a 50 micron stencil with the humidity in the shop 35-40% takes about 4-6 hours to dry.

If your screen isn't fully dry it will always under expose. I may be dry at 50% but with that much humidity the sensitizer isn't as sensitive to the UV . one of the emulsion manufactures has a chart about the humidity and its relation to the sensitivity and crosslinking.
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Old February 1st, 2015 Feb 1, 2015 8:29:28 AM -   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Saati PHU Emulsion not adhering

I usually let my screens dry for at least 24 hours no matter the emulsion used. How long are you letting them dry? In the winter I let dry a bit longer because of humidity.

If you're doing a 1/1 with the Ryonet stuff, and then a 2/1 with the PHU and allowing the screens to dry the same amount of time, then like Sean said, you may be getting underexposure due to the screen not being dry enough.

If you're giving it a good enough amount of time to dry, then I would probably look at your bulbs. Ever replaced?

Troubleshooting easiest and cheapest to hardest and more expensive is my motto.

1: Let it dry longer before exposure and see what happens. If that doesn't help then....

2: Another option could be to make a screen 1/1 and then see how it exposes in comparison to the 2/1.

3: Check your bulbs.

Maybe you mentioned how long you're drying for and I missed it though? Still fried...
 
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Old February 1st, 2015 Feb 1, 2015 10:28:49 AM -   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Saati PHU Emulsion not adhering

Quote:
Originally Posted by sben763
loss of detail is under exposure or screen prep. I can see edge loss which indicates underexposure.

Are you using a Blacklight unit? Age of bulbs? climate you are in cold? if you are in a climate under 60F it could be the lights are under outputting when cold a 5-10 min warm up of the unit will fix the problem.
Hi Sean!

I am exposing at 4 mins for PHU.. others on the forum suggested a much lower exposure time. So perhaps that would eliminate under exposure as the culprit? If so, it must be Screen Prep. Some of my chems are really old and we have hard water in Florida.

Not sure if our unit is blacklight. Bulbs are pretty old, like 2 years. I'll warm them up for now until I can get new ones. That would be very interesting to compare the differences.

Thanks for adding your comments : )

Here is the link the exposure unit.
Screen Printing Exposure Units - EXPOS-IT - Ultraviolet Screen Exposing Units
 
Old February 1st, 2015 Feb 1, 2015 10:37:04 AM -   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Saati PHU Emulsion not adhering

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoXid
Florida ... How do you dry the screen before exposure? Perhaps it is not actually dry enough to expose properly. Not sure if the PHU would be harder to dry than HiFi, but I can't imagine PHU being under exposed at 4:15 on that unit.

Does your film stick to the screen a bit?

PHU is really thick. My first attempts with it came out needlessly heavy, so might give 1/1 a try. Overly thick emulsion is more prone to not drying all the way through.

Noxid



I built at light safe dry box with blackout vents and fan for ventilation. I dry screens before coating and after coating in that box. Drys HIFI in about 4 hours all year long. This last batch of SAATI was heavy on detail and all the screens were coated 2/1. They dried for about 2 days. Also, I'm with you on it not being underexposed, unless they are not dry enought from the start?

Must be something with my prep, my chems, light bulbs or hard water.

Film does not stick to screen.. well just a tad.

I will startover with 1/1 screens like you and a few have mentioned. At least until I can dial in my times and keep detail on the screen.

Thanks!

Last edited by NFrancis; February 1st, 2015 at 10:44 AM..
 
Old February 1st, 2015 Feb 1, 2015 10:40:41 AM -   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Saati PHU Emulsion not adhering

Quote:
Originally Posted by porkchopharry
I usually let my screens dry for at least 24 hours no matter the emulsion used. How long are you letting them dry? In the winter I let dry a bit longer because of humidity.

If you're doing a 1/1 with the Ryonet stuff, and then a 2/1 with the PHU and allowing the screens to dry the same amount of time, then like Sean said, you may be getting underexposure due to the screen not being dry enough.

If you're giving it a good enough amount of time to dry, then I would probably look at your bulbs. Ever replaced?

Troubleshooting easiest and cheapest to hardest and more expensive is my motto.

1: Let it dry longer before exposure and see what happens. If that doesn't help then....

2: Another option could be to make a screen 1/1 and then see how it exposes in comparison to the 2/1.

3: Check your bulbs.

Maybe you mentioned how long you're drying for and I missed it though? Still fried...

Andy, it is possible they were not dry enough. I did wait about 48 hrs before exposing. I'll bring it down to 1/1.. test that. Then on to bulbs. Thanks for the advice.
 






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