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Discuss water base and discharge screen printing inks and curing methods. Share tips on getting the best results with the different ink manufacturers.



trouble with printing white water base ink

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Old March 30th, 2015 Mar 30, 2015 12:22:27 PM -   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: trouble with printing white water base ink

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Originally Posted by porkchopharry
The Ryonet WB inks are good. I've never used the warp drive personally so I'm not sure how it would affect things. For most dark stuff, especially 50/50 I use Supercover. Only thing I would use warp drive for is 50/50 and the Supercover needs no additives for that. Plus many more high opacity colors.
I'm not completely sold on Ryonet's WB, but had not heard of Permaset - is that what you use? Only thing I don't see is the curing instructions on their product pages - scratch that, it's at the bottom. From the reviews they look really promising and I like their color ranges. Can I ask what emulsion you are using and have had the best luck with? I use SAATI photopolymer right now, but am thinking of just switching to a hybrid for plastisol and WB.

Last question (of this reply): Is it important that I have really good ventilation? From what I understand with WB it's just water vapor that's in the air. I do this in my basement. If I was doing discharge I'd for sure have to make some improvements. My conveyor dryer does have a vent out the top that I have going out a window vent, but I question how much that will actually take up, especially if I have a fan at the entry of the dryer to speed up the cure.
 
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Old March 30th, 2015 Mar 30, 2015 12:48:53 PM -   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: trouble with printing white water base ink

The Ryonet WB is fine as far as the dark colors, and I actually really like the Comet White. It works well on dark hoodies and other dark stuff. It covers real well. I'm not a Ryonet fanboy, the exact opposite really. But I will give them their credit on the ink. Now, why they do not make any other high opacity WB inks in other colors...I do not know.

Having said that, the PermaSet is better (to me) as far as overall print quailty and more versatile, but the Supercover is more expensive. The regular Aqua for light garments is about the same price as the regular colored Ryonet WB though.

I use mostly PermaSet SuperCover. Saati PHU emulsion (pre-sensitized) with a reclaimable stencil hardener. PHU is good for water base if you do a good post expose. But the stencil hardener helps because the issues of stencil breakdown are when you wash it out in the sink.

Dunno what type of work you do though. If you're doing print jobs, you might be able to skip the hardener. If you're doing your own stuff, like I do, and you don't reclaim stuff a ton, then those screens are (hopefully) going to see hundreds and thousands of washouts, clog removal, whatever. And you don't want to bork your stencil up.

Cure times on WB is all pretty much the same. You can cheat it a bit at 360 for 90 seconds. But you don't want to go hotter than that, or you may get brittle prints which will crack over time.

Water based ink contains ammonia - and whatever else - I wouldn't necessarily want to huff it for a ton of time. My shop doesn't have great ventilation. But I do have the dryer vented out the wall. And I have a "back door" I keep open all the time. And I'm ok.
 
Old March 31st, 2015 Mar 31, 2015 11:35:22 AM -   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: trouble with printing white water base ink

Thanks for all the info! I also have Saati PHU and didn't realize it could be used for WB until you mentioned it. That's really nice as I have my exposure down pretty well and like it. Is there a general rule of thumb for a post-exposure? I usually keep it on there for about a minute. After reading on Saati's site it looks like I can do it even longer than the initial exposure. My screens are usually good around the 1:45 mark. What hardener do you use?

I won't be doing too much of my own stuff and will likely be doing runs of 25-100's for print jobs. I'd like to do my own stuff someday, but my market is very, very small. Selling online wouldn't be a problem, and am good with web design, it's just the time and money spent getting out there and connecting with the consumers.
 
 
Old March 31st, 2015 Mar 31, 2015 11:45:39 AM -   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: trouble with printing white water base ink

After I wash out the screen, I usually sit my screens outside in the sun for a couple hours, I usually will flip them over once so each side gets to sun bathe a bit.

I know that's probably not necessary and overkill, but that is what I do. I usually won't use a screen once it's exposed until the next day or so, to ensure it's thoroughly dried out all the way through. Unless of course, I'm making an emegency screen - then all bets are off.

I usually like to let them dry laying flat. Like...put the screen between two chairs and lay them out that way. So no emulsion etc runs into the open stencil. Just to be safe.

As far as hardener - Kiwo WR which is a hardener made for water base and it is reclaimable.

Once I've done my post exposure ritual thing. I take a sponge, pour some of the hardener on (wear gloves) and wipe down each side of the screen. I'll either keep it out in the sun for a bit longer, or I'll leave it in the shop overnight if its too late in the day by the time I do it.

Also, I prefer to post expose in sunlight because I feel it really dries the stencil much better. Although it's not always possible for obvious reasons. If that's the case, I usually will post expose on the exposure unit for a good while. Like 15 minutes or something, then flip it over - then set it aside and let it dry really well (overnight) and do the hardener. Again, THAT's probably overkill too. But it's nothing really inconvenient, and I'm OCD.

PS - if you're doing jobs, then whether or not you use a hardener is something you may want to feel out. You might not need it if those screens are going to be reclaimed and re-used pretty quickly. On the other hand, if you're getting started with WB it may not be a bad idea to use it until you get a feel on how to deal with any possible clogs, etc.

Also if you will be cataloging a screen with WB for more orders down the line for a customer, I would probably recommend adding a hardener. Just to be safe. YMMV.

There's a chance with PHU that you may never need a hardener. But I have had stencils go nutty when washing them out - PHU included. And it always happens at the very worst time.

Last edited by porkchopharry; March 31st, 2015 at 11:50 AM..
 
Old April 15th, 2015 Apr 15, 2015 3:32:59 PM -   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: trouble with printing white water base ink

Ok.... I am stepping in on this post and if I need to start somewhere else I can...
I am new to water based inks and have a lot of questions for Porkchopharry because he is experienced and has some awesome points! Please help me with where my process could be wrong and offer advice where needed. I catalog my screens as you do (no special orders) they are my designs.
1. I have someone make my screens and they are either 180 or 220 mesh
2. I have tried many of my screens (none have worked) the water based ink (Enviroline) literally runs down the back side of my screen like water which puts big blots of ink on the garments
3. I use a conveyor dryer with a fan for 2 minutes to reach a temp of 300-310 with a temp gun
4. In your experience what is the best shirts to use for water based inks (I have Next level, American Apparel, Tultex etc...) and which fabric blend...I want to go with ONE brand that works best for water based ink to just go ahead and weed out that one problem because my line of clothing depends on consistency
5. you use Permaset inks and I can only find those in the UK...

Basically, I have read many many many of your posts and you have an awesome handle on water based inks and printing and I am using all of your points to hopefully help minimize more mistakes for me in the future. Thanks in advance and keep up the great work.

Rhonda
 
Old April 15th, 2015 Apr 15, 2015 4:51:59 PM -   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: trouble with printing white water base ink

You can get PermaSet here in the U.S. just google. It's here. Number of places carry it in pints, quarts, gallons and 4 gallon containers.

I'm not sure what the "best" brand of garment is. That's all very subjective. Whenever I say anything about printing, I'm always referring to AA. It is all I use. Mostly 100% cotton but I do offer a few designs on 50/50. AA works best for ME, because...I like it, and I have built a dedicated and loyal core of customers who like it too. When they purchase a tee or hoodie, etc from me, they know it's on AA.

But again, all subjective to your likes/dislikes, what you charge per garment, etc.

I'm not familiar with Enviroline, is that the older Ryonet stuff? Regardless, it shouldn't be running down the back of your screen no matter what brand. Are you sure you are not flooding too hard?

I use 180 pretty much exclusively, a small percentage of 200, one or two 230's and I even use one or two 156-160's none have issues with inks running down the back. Make sure you mix your ink real well too before you are using it.

How are you using a fan with your conveyor? You don't want it blowing into the tunnel from one of the ends IMHO. And your cure time if you are around 300-310 needs to be longer than 2 minutes. 2-3 minutes at 320. You can cheat it a tad and go to 360 but not much higher, for 90 seconds. At 300 degrees you might be needing 4+ minutes per garment to cure.

PS - I'm not sure if I'm THAT knowledgable about this stuff. I just switched to WB one day from plastisol and I had orders to fulfill. I had no choice really but to figure it out fast! I still learn something new every day.

#1 rule to printing WB? DON'T PANIC!
 
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Old April 15th, 2015 Apr 15, 2015 5:58:37 PM -   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: trouble with printing white water base ink

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboylife
Ok.... I am stepping in on this post and if I need to start somewhere else I can...
I am new to water based inks and have a lot of questions for Porkchopharry because he is experienced and has some awesome points! Please help me with where my process could be wrong and offer advice where needed. I catalog my screens as you do (no special orders) they are my designs.
1. I have someone make my screens and they are either 180 or 220 mesh
2. I have tried many of my screens (none have worked) the water based ink (Enviroline) literally runs down the back side of my screen like water which puts big blots of ink on the garments
3. I use a conveyor dryer with a fan for 2 minutes to reach a temp of 300-310 with a temp gun
4. In your experience what is the best shirts to use for water based inks (I have Next level, American Apparel, Tultex etc...) and which fabric blend...I want to go with ONE brand that works best for water based ink to just go ahead and weed out that one problem because my line of clothing depends on consistency
5. you use Permaset inks and I can only find those in the UK...

Basically, I have read many many many of your posts and you have an awesome handle on water based inks and printing and I am using all of your points to hopefully help minimize more mistakes for me in the future. Thanks in advance and keep up the great work.

Rhonda
Ryonet sells co-branded Matsui as Enviroline. I printed discharge with it (same exact base and pigments just with the addition of the discharge activator). I use 156 screens and had no problems with the ink bleeding through.

How much pigment are you adding? The pigment is pretty runny; you should be putting in at most 10% by weight, as per the instructions ... AH! Think I got it. On the label does it say 301 PC? If so, we just found your problem. PC is just pigment solution, not a premixed ink. You must mix the 301 PC pigment with ink base, which is thick. Premixed ink is labeled as 301 RC.

If that is not what is going on, then it sounds like your ink is bad.
 
Old April 15th, 2015 Apr 15, 2015 6:17:27 PM -   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: trouble with printing white water base ink

Well I just looked and all of the Enviroline that I have say 301 RC. LOL! I have just wasted a lot of expensive pigment trying to figure out why it was dripping through my screen. Thank you so much!

I would still like some answers to the other problems/questions that I had if anyone wouldn't mind.

Rhonda
 
Old April 15th, 2015 Apr 15, 2015 6:19:51 PM -   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: trouble with printing white water base ink

Well shoot, I just noticed I had it backwards.... I have the 301 RC which is not the pigment, so I guess all of my ink is bad then. All of the ink is the consistency of a really runny honey a little thicker than water.

Rhonda
 
Old April 15th, 2015 Apr 15, 2015 6:25:28 PM -   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: trouble with printing white water base ink

Quote:
Originally Posted by porkchopharry
I'm not familiar with Enviroline, is that the older Ryonet stuff? Regardless, it shouldn't be running down the back of your screen no matter what brand. Are you sure you are not flooding too hard?
Yes it is the old Ryonet ink... maybe too old. I will definitely try the other ink... starting my search now.

Rhonda
 
Old April 15th, 2015 Apr 15, 2015 6:41:51 PM -   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: trouble with printing white water base ink

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboylife
Well I just looked and all of the Enviroline that I have say 301 RC. LOL! I have just wasted a lot of expensive pigment trying to figure out why it was dripping through my screen. Thank you so much!

I would still like some answers to the other problems/questions that I had if anyone wouldn't mind.

Rhonda
This one has regular and Supercover versions of Permaset:
Permaset Aqua :: Water Based Screen Printing Inks

This one only has Supercover, but pricing might be a little better--depending on what size you want (they also have premixed RC Matsui):
Waterbase Ink : McLogan Supply Company

If you are printing light ink on dark shirts, then Supercover is something to investigate, as you can avoid having to print an underbase or using discharge (which works great but may not be as safe to work with everyday). If you print dark ink on light shirts, then you can use pretty much anything.

As to shirts, American Apparel has a fine and tight weave without a lot of random fibers sticking up, so it could take a finely detailed print well. I also use Hanes Beefy-T because from the customer perspective the fit and weight of the shirt is usually what matters most and different people like different fit and weight of shirt. Both have good brand recognition and are considered premium brands. Still, lots and lots of Gildan shirts are sold and cost you half as much ... Other than shirts with lots of stray fibers, you can print regular (non discharge) ink on anything and get good results. It's really a matter of what styles you want to offer and the fitment preferences of your customers. Uhm, though some inks require special additives if used on synthetic blends to avoid dye migration (Permaset does not).
 
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Old April 15th, 2015 Apr 15, 2015 6:44:46 PM -   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: trouble with printing white water base ink

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboylife
Well shoot, I just noticed I had it backwards.... I have the 301 RC which is not the pigment, so I guess all of my ink is bad then. All of the ink is the consistency of a really runny honey a little thicker than water.

Rhonda
That could happen if it ever froze.
 
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Old April 15th, 2015 Apr 15, 2015 9:17:15 PM -   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: trouble with printing white water base ink

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboylife

I would still like some answers to the other problems/questions that I had if anyone wouldn't mind.

Rhonda
I think you answered the big question in regards to ink.

Again as far as tee brand, it's very subjective.

Lot's of good reasosn to stick with one brand. I do. For a number of reasons.

As you build a customer base even just having one brand across your entire line can not only be confusing to your customer to decide on. But it becomes confusing and hell-ish for you to keep up with what you need keep in stock. Multiply that by two or three different brands, and it gets stupid. It's hard enough juggling a stock of blanks for tee, hoodie, tank, etc blanks for just one brand. Much less 2 or more.

Confusing your customer by having one garment on one brand that fits like this, and another garment on another brand that fits like that. Or, even worse - one garment on this brand costs this much, and then another garment on that brand, costs that much.... Just creates confusion and will drive them away. Trust me...been there.

Personally, I want one brand with the widest selection of garments and colors, to me USA made is very important, and also I want to be able to depend on them to get me my stuff on time. Also, the results I desire and expect. But again, the results I desire and expect. They may not be the same as anyone else. And neither result or expectation is wrong.

So...then I guess you want to find that one that works for you and your pricing structure - which is another sticking point. And we're all different in what we like. So...best advice there is to print on a bunch of stuff, and see what works best for you and offers you what you need.

You want to use ONE brand, I agree with you. That's what I do. But, the only way to determine what works is getting down with it. Because in reality while AA may work great for me, it may be the pits for you. It's one of those "there's no substitute for experience and experimentation" type of things I guess.
 
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Old April 24th, 2015 Apr 24, 2015 6:55:40 AM -   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: trouble with printing white water base ink

Why use WB instead of plastisol?
 
Old April 25th, 2015 Apr 25, 2015 6:19:14 AM -   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: trouble with printing white water base ink

Softer print, can charge more for it, breathable ... Clients believe it is kinder to the planet .. It just is freaking awesome.

I have never used plastisol so probably bias.

Nope definitely bias
 






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