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Discuss water base and discharge screen printing inks and curing methods. Share tips on getting the best results with the different ink manufacturers.



Why water based instead of plastisol??

 
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Old September 3rd, 2012 Sep 3, 2012 6:01:42 PM -   #1 (permalink)
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Default Why water based instead of plastisol??

Hi i am getting ready to buy a small starter press from Ryonet and noticed it comes with water base. why do they use this instead of plastisol, it seems like it takes a long time to dry and would slow down production greatly. i have a heat press and will be using that and possibly a heat gun if needed. just tryin g to figure out if i should just get plastisol instead of water base. i been out of the loop for awhile thanks...

by the way its the $199 kit im gonna get for now
 
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Old September 3rd, 2012 Sep 3, 2012 6:36:59 PM -   #2 (permalink)
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Waterbased has some distinct advantages over plastisol and vice versa. Waterbased for a soft hand and increased durability. Ease of cleanup is another factor on the pro list for waterbased. Plastisol can be easier to print for some people (though for me waterbased is easier) and inks do not dry until heat cured which can make them messy but can sit in a screen or open tub almost indefinitely and won't dry in the image area unless your platens are too hot.

This just scratches the surface so do a search for "waterbased or plastisol" and get ready to read a ton of opinions on both sides of the debate. Your shop will need to be able to work with both once you get to a certain point in your growth.

The waterbased inks from ryonet are some of the best on the market. They are matsui inks that ryonet rebrands and tweaks for their own lable. They have a great instructional vid that will come taylored to either type you choose with your kit.

Best of luck.
 
Old September 3rd, 2012 Sep 3, 2012 6:48:12 PM -   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why water based instead of plastisol??

THANKS. i am pressed for time as i have about 7 jobs coming up all one color i usually sub out but thought since i have the time right now i would get the small color press and do them my self. hope it comes out ok. i did printing for a little bit and used plastisol and had no problems with it, i was just hoping the waterbase was good. i want to make sure i dont give the customer a cheap product or something that will wash off in one or 2 washes
 
 
Old September 6th, 2012 Sep 6, 2012 5:22:50 PM -   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why water based instead of plastisol??

I've done both (not a lot, but have some experience) and water based is a lot more capital ($$$) intensive. Hot air dryers are insanely expensive compared to standard spot dryers.

Yes, a heat gun will work... for a dozen or two shirts.... but production run of several DOZENS???

Water based inks are not any more 'environmentally safe' than plastisol.

Given the two, plastisol is cheaper hardware wise and more forgiving screen wise... water based has the softer feel... not much else.
 
Old September 6th, 2012 Sep 6, 2012 6:26:39 PM -   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why water based instead of plastisol??

Waterbase unless one of the few enviro inks are more harmful then plastisol. There is a big debate on advantages and disadvantages. We mostly print plastisol mainly cause of our location and equipment.
 
Old September 6th, 2012 Sep 6, 2012 7:01:23 PM -   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why water based instead of plastisol??

did water base, plastisol, and burned screens. Now I'm sublimation. good luck uncletee.
 
Old September 6th, 2012 Sep 6, 2012 7:12:48 PM -   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why water based instead of plastisol??

Quote:
Originally Posted by sben763
Waterbase unless one of the few enviro inks are more harmful then plastisol. There is a big debate on advantages and disadvantages. We mostly print plastisol mainly cause of our location and equipment.

I'm not sure what the first sentence means... its like a triple negative... but waterbased inks are NOT any friendlier than plactisol.

The cleanup chemicals have gotten better, but the inks, no.
 
Old September 7th, 2012 Sep 7, 2012 2:13:47 AM -   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why water based instead of plastisol??

There is a few enviro line waterbase inks that are environmentally friendly and don't require the harsh clean up chemicals. I have only tried 1 of the and it didn't seem to last.
 
Old September 7th, 2012 Sep 7, 2012 4:09:37 AM -   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why water based instead of plastisol??

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2STRONG
THANKS. i am pressed for time as i have about 7 jobs coming up all one color...
If the one color for those 7 jobs coming up is white ink, and you are new to screen printing, I would go plastisol instead of w/b. White is tricky in plastisol, but in water based its a whole new can of worms. There are w/b inks, and obviously discharge, but that may be a hard way to go if you are new printing.

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Old September 7th, 2012 Sep 7, 2012 4:44:17 PM -   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why water based instead of plastisol??

Quote:
Originally Posted by sben763
There is a few enviro line waterbase inks that are environmentally friendly and don't require the harsh clean up chemicals. I have only tried 1 of the and it didn't seem to last.
The issue is not the cleanup chemicals or the binders. ITs the PIGMENT. The water based pigments are so fine that they are not filtered out by municipal waste systems. So the pass right through the system and back into the water supply.

Environline is a gimmik. Its just rebranded Matsui inks. There is nothing environmental about it.

Google it... its a COMMON misconception that waterbased inks are 'safer'. NO. The ink just was water in it. ITs just as bad as any other ink.
 
Old September 7th, 2012 Sep 7, 2012 5:08:05 PM -   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why water based instead of plastisol??

I understand the pigment issues but with plastisol I can use environmentally friendly chemicals If read several post up I said that waterbase is usally worse than plastisol. I am not talking about ryonet enviroline when I mentioned the enviro inks. It's been a while since I used them and I almost refuse to do any waterbase as I am in the country on a septic I refuse to use any chemicals that are not biodegradable and non toxic. I have a sand filter and cartridge filter system I built to protect the environment. Basicly our county doesn't have any regulations so I looked up some close to us that had regulation on what can go into septic. I have gone way above and beyond any and all requirements. A lot of guys around here rinse everything right down the drain that are on city system.
 
Old September 7th, 2012 Sep 7, 2012 7:19:43 PM -   #12 (permalink)
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Forward: this is my experience and my point of view. It isn't an attack and it is not targeted any person real or imagined.

Water base inks are part of my environmentally conscious shop. Face it, the pigment issue is typically the one scape goat in this argument. My cleanup chems are soy or orange based, my inks are handled in such a way that the pigment is not an issue (if you use the correct ink degrader the pigments are clumped in the process. I use water based pallet adhesive. I don't use spot removers to fix mistakes, I use water. All the MSDS sheets in my shop book are tamer then bleach or bathroom cleaners. It's about the whole process not just one part of the process that makes something "green."

You can get started in waterbased inks in a cost effective manner. A simple flash can cure waterbased in 2.5 minutes. With just a little ingenuity you can set up a process that doesn't get backed up and is a good pace for one person. Its more about how you handle your profits then it is about what you start with. Quality products and reinvesting profits will lead to steady and sustainable growth and better tools.

Waterbased inks not only have a softer hand they also embed the color in the fabric as opposed to being cured to the surface of the fabrics thus durability is another thing to consider. I have found that the most people that are aggressively anti waterbased are vested in plastisol and don't like the added complexities of working with waterbased, or are loosing customers be cause its not a service they offer. What do the washing and handling instructions for your plastisol prints look like? With waterbased they are same as what's on the shirts tag. Waterbased inks are not thermoplastics, hit most plastisol prints with and hot iron and you will muck up both.

With all that said. I do not pitch may wares to the customer as the earth friendly alternative to plastisol. I simply let my customers choose the feel they are looking for. Between two samples of each my customers are drawn to the feel and look of waterbased. It's just how it is for me. I choose to handle and work with the safer products and have found an environmentally conscious solution for me. I could choose to mix bleach and ammonia while I clean the tub but I don't. I choose to work with the safest ones I can and then I handle them with care and according to the instructions. I even use plastisol when I need it's characteristics and can't find another way.

We all have our preferences and have found what works for us and our shops. So it's important to make sure that complete and accurate information gets put out there so people can make informed decisions not just go with the most common or main stream solutions.

With that novel I leave you with my two cents. Toss them in a well and make a wish.
 
Old September 7th, 2012 Sep 7, 2012 7:40:00 PM -   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why water based instead of plastisol??

Mikel. Care to disclose the clean up chemicals that you use. I am always looking for enviro alternatives. Although I do get customers that like the soft feel and try to accommodate.
most of our customers like the more vibrant colors of the plastisol and since we use high mesh thinned plastisol inks With sofhand also added we get some very soft prints. I have had some require waterbase and have and will do it but since I have to buy emulsion each time i do waterbase I have to pass the cost onto the customer.

For Plastisol I use all Franmar products. Since switching my chemical usage has dropped 30% the emulsion remover works 100% better than anything else I use works for all emulsions. Maybe I should check for waterbased degrader there.
 
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Old September 7th, 2012 Sep 7, 2012 7:58:47 PM -   #14 (permalink)
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I use CCI products. But most of the time I have found that warm water and a cheap pressure washer handle most of my clean up. But the cci emulsion remover has been outstanding with the emulsion i use. Cci had a diazo hybrid emulsion that is good for medium runs of waterbased and plastisol. And yes I think some people can do excellent and fine work with plastisol. It does have its advantages thats for sure. Proper screen choices and additives can go a long way to closing the gaps in the feel of the two. So far I have found vibrancy of colors hasn't been an issue for me.

Last edited by Hegemone; September 7th, 2012 at 08:07 PM..
 
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Old September 7th, 2012 Sep 7, 2012 8:24:20 PM -   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why water based instead of plastisol??

The CCI ERI80 is what I switched out to the Franmar stripedoo. After using beanedoo ink remover and pressure washer spray 3-4 squirts stripedoo on ink side the maybe a 1 on ink side if the edges have build up. 30 sec and it almost running off the screen. I use a power washer but I can use a hose. Franmar instructions are like 5-7 squirts per side but I find no where that much is needed. Have used on S.E.X emulsion(Performance screen) ulano orange and Ryonet Hi-FI all with great success. I may try the CCI enviro remover next order from Ryonet to see how It compairs.
 






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