Workforce 1100 low (bad) color gamut?

Fenrir said:

I have been using an R220 with pigment inks in refill carts for about five years. It finally completely broke (black refused to print even after using every trick out there to unclog it), so I finally got rid of it. I have a second display model as backup, but since I'd just started getting into printing decals on Sihl 3988 and doing sign work with a small vinyl cutter, I thought I'd get a large format printer instead. However, due to room issues, it would need to be an all-purpose printer for high volume printing, sign printing, and t-shirt transfers. I asked my ink supplier about a 1400, but he recommended the 1100 because it was native to pigment ink, and wouldn't require ICC profiles. I found a 1400 on sale and was about to use it anyway, but then found a Workforce 1100 on sale too, so I decided to buy it and work with that one first, since I needed an "everyday" printer more than a photo printer.

Before I got the R220, I tried a C88. The thing was completely incapable of printing nice blues, I could only make it print dark navy blues and varying shades of faded navy. Primary blue, bright cyan, and turquoise shades all came out navy blue. I was worried that it was due to the aftermarket inks, but I hadn't tried the OEM carts yet. The feeder broke on it, so I exchanged it for a C88+. I had the exact same issues, so I tried it with the OEM cartridges. There was zero difference. I switched to the R220 with much hesitation, but found that even with pigment inks in it, it was more than capable of printing bright, vibrant colors. So I was very worried that I would have the same issues with the Workforce. I saw it was spoken highly of on this forum, and another one, as well as my supplier, who said the only reason to use a 1400 with pigment was back when there was no 1100, and now that there was a wide format native pigment printer, you wouldn't have to deal with profiling it. The example photo on the box shows a big bar chart being printed with bright primary and cyan blues. So I went ahead and ordered the CIS for the 1100. I got the universal ink instead of the heat transfer ink, and figured I could lower the intensity of the yellow either through the driver or through the photo software before printing.

Unfortunately, I had the exact same issue with the 1100 that I had with the C88/C88+. Yellow is very strong and vibrant, magenta is not so bright but still colorful. But anything that requires cyan, from sea green to primary blue, comes out dull, lifeless, and faded. On plain paper mode on cheap copy paper the color gamut is faded and utterly horrible. On matte coated stock the colors are stronger, but still dull.

The three columns on the left are the 1100. On the right is a print from the HP 8500A which is 4-color pigment, not dye. The two color squares to the right of the Workforce are a better approximation of the output I'm getting between the two, the 1100 itself is there as an example of the output claimed to be able to print by Epson. The nozzle checks for CMY were 100% good, black had a few bands that will probably clear up soon.

I have not tried the printer with the OEM inks. I don't plan on it either, since right now the unopened inks are worth more to me now than the printer and the CIS. Before I take a baseball bat to it, can anyone else out there using aftermarket inks with their Workforce tell me if this is an issue with bad inks? I don't want to list my supplier, but I've been told the inks are Image Specialists, which means they should be good inks. And the experience with the C88 leads me to believe that it's the printer itself that's an issue. I searched the forum and was surprised nobody else has commented on this, though I did find one thread complaining that the blues were "off" but the poster was able to "adjust" it enough to be "acceptable", not great. I would think that more people would be unsatisfied with such a terrible color gamut. I don't expect photo brightness from a pigment printer, but as the 8500A print shows, 4-color pigment doesn't mean it has to be completely horrible.

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mgparrish said:

See my post here ...

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/printers-inks-inkjet-laser-transfers/t181241.html#post1073798

Reference the photos of the transfered shirts.
It's likely your inks, paper, or your color managment, or combinations of.

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Fenrir said:

That's actually pretty much how the same proof image came out for me without profiling. The blues look brighter there but only because they are against other colors. If I print a photo, the color difference is actually negligible. If I print a logo (such as my own) that has a large area of turquoise blue, it looks dull and dingy.

The other problem being that since t-shirts are not the main part of my business, if I plan on printing up a dozen menus or brochures out of OpenOffice, I can't color profile a print out of the software. My main question was is the dull blue normal for the Workforce 1100 output like the C88 was (which is what I believe is the case) and I simply can't fix the problem, or are my (probably Image Specialists) inks mismatched to OEM?

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Fenrir said:

I know I'm not going to get perfect color reproduction. It's just that I'm not getting remotely good color reproduction. My supplier doesn't even have profiles for the 1100 since the pigment ink is "color matched" to the OEMs (though I guess that means I should find an OEM profile).

Can anyone with a Workforce 1100 with aftermarket pigments please print RGB Cyan (which Microsoft Office calls Turquoise - R 0 G 255 B 255) with whatever you think the best color management is and scan it? I know the difference between RGB and CMYK, and that it's not going to come out looking like the screen. But the HP8500A at work is a 4-color pigment office machine and it comes out nice and bright on plain paper in regular mode. I just want to know if the gamut of the 1100 is more limited than other printers. I spent a lot of time adjusting and profiling the C88 and never got any better results. I had been hoping the 1100 had better color gamut than the old 4-color Epsons since the print on the box shows bright turquoise, but if it doesn't I'll just get rid of it.

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mgparrish said:

In your graphic app.
Adobe RGB 1998 workspace.
Perceptual rendering intent.
Printer manages colors.

At your printer.

Adobe RGB 1998 Gamma 2.2
Matte or plain paper setting.
"Text + Graphic" quality setting.

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Fenrir said:

I printed one like this and the quality is pretty much exactly the same as the one printed out of Open Office. No brightness at all. It feels like the cyan ink is so dark that it overpowers the yellow used to make this hue. The one out of the HP8500A is even better than printing direct out of OO. My request for someone to print a color square and scan it for me is to determine whether or not I'm limited by the printer or if the aftermarket inks are not as good a match as the vendor claims, which I'm taking into account even though I doubt it is the problem.

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mgparrish said:

Did you actually make a transfer and press? Nearly all transfer papers look weak printed on paper before you transfer.

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Fenrir said:

I think you have misread my original post. I intend to use the printer mainly for commercial printing. By high volume, I mean 100 menus for a local restaurant, 200 brochures for a local muffin shop, a newsletter for a small business group, etc. The wide format allows me to make booklets, etc, on 11x17 paper that I couldn't make on my old R220. The pigment inks ensure that they won't fade, for instance, a restaurant that tapes an unfolded menu to the window. They also make it somewhat smear-resistant-to-damp-fingers, though I will recommend people laminate menus. I don't have any worries about the printer being able to hold up to this, as I have heard dozens of testimonials from people on another forum dedicated to refilling printers who have gone through so many prints on their Workforce 1100 that they've had to reset the waste ink tank counter half a dozen times or more. I asked several of them to scan me a color chart sample before I bought it, but nobody ever did and since the printer is discontinued and was on clearance, I went ahead and bought it anyway, relying on the print shown on the box as an example of the output it was capable of doing.

I don't intend on becoming a t-shirt shop, however I've had several people come to me and complain that they only want less than five shirts (i.e. someone who runs a yard service with only three people) and nobody in the area will do it for them. Any larger amount than that I'd send to a real t-shirt printer. I've read a few posts on various forums, including here, that if you use OEM or OEM equivalent and not T-shirt transfer inks, you need to reduce the yellow saturation. My supplier also said that the yellow ink is the only one that's different in the heat transfer set. Since so many people here use this printer, and give glowing reviews for its output, I am simply trying to find out whether or not the color gamut issue I'm having is inherent to the printer itself, or if I possibly have bad aftermarket ink. I want to see how RGB cyan comes out on someone else's printer on either plain or coated matte paper. That's all. I've been told multiple times that it's simply that pigment has a lower color gamut than dye printers, but 1) My R220 with aftermarket pigment refills could do it, and 2) the HP 8500A that has 4-color pigment can do it too. Printing it out both profiled from GimPhoto and with no profiling through Open Office gives dull medium blue.

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Fenrir said:

I don't understand how this is becoming a discussion about the print industry. The only reason I posted a lot of detail about what I'm doing with the printer is because I didn't want to make my post "my printer output sucks plz hlp". I'm not here to argue about whether or not the printer is the best for what I plan on using it for.

I asked here because a lot of people here use a Workforce 1100. I'm disappointed in my 1100 with aftermarket ink because it can't print nice primary, cyan, and sapphire blues. I simply want someone else with the same printer to confirm that the output is what I should expect and there's nothing I can do, or whether I need to find a different aftermarket ink supplier. The replies telling me to quit what I'm doing are not helpful at all.

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Fenrir said:

I plan on selling the OEM inks. If I open them and they don't have any color difference, then I just wasted over half the cost of buying a CIS for my 1400. If I open them and they do have better colors, I can't afford to run the printer with OEM inks anyway.

Please stop trying to put all the blame on me and derailing the thread.

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