[Mstevens_design]

Hello all,

The more that I have been on here, the more that I have seen a trend towards the contest sites. The ones where a ton of "designers" will do a "design" and you choose which one you like best.

While this sounds like a great idea, it is far from it.

1. Think for an instant that you as a client do not know what a good design actually is. Now this isn't meant to be offensive, but to get you in the right mindset. Just because something looks great to you, doesn't mean that it is going to sell or is a good branding decision for your business. Good designers know the trends and will do the research to make sure that your design, logo, website, etc is timeless and puts your best foot forward. If just anyone could do what designers do... they would.
2. Good designers don't do spec work. Any designer that can make money doing this, is making money. So why would they want to spend many many hours designing something on the chance of payment? These contest sites are for children or untrained individuals that have free time. Think about it this way.... Would you rather eat at the restaurant that is busy or the restaurant that has had no one sitting in it all day, but is handing out free samples on toothpicks?
3. Price! You are getting that "original" design all for $50 and it normally costs $200. You know its a kid doing it and you're OK with that. Are you OK with taking it to your print shop and having that artist charge you with $175 in art charges to fix it? Just because it looks good doesnt mean that it is print ready. A proper artist will know the print specifications and will be able to save you on art charges from the printer.

So basically... Just Pay! It will save you headaches in the near future and if you build up a rapport with you professional designer, they tend to cut you a break later. Get to know us, and work with us and we will work with you on the cost of that next design.

 

[No Face]

Blah,Blah, Blah

 

[Mstevens_design]

Blah,Blah, Blah

Well thank you for your input. I mean, why actually read it and think about it when you can clearly make a sarcastic comment?

 

[ProSeparatorNJ]

Like clipart and the proliferation of personal computers, these sites are yet another step along the path of sub priming the art and design game. No point in fighting it. It's coming to this industry the way it came to others. We simply have to find a way to ride the tide. Traditional ways of selling art are being challenged by the sudden influx of millions of people who own a computer and Photoshop.

 

[Mstevens_design]

No point in fighting it.... Traditional ways of selling art are being challenged by the sudden influx of millions of people who own a computer and Photoshop.

Oh I definitely will fight it every chance that I get. Part of my job as a designer is to inform my clients and potential clients the pitfalls of these "design sites" and those "designers". Not to mention that it really does eat at me when I have to recreate a complex image for someone just because they got it cheap to begin with. Not because I feel like I am wasting my time or any other ego related reason, but because if the client had this information earlier, it would have saved them a ton of money and time.

While every kid these days has a cracked copy of Photoshop does make it harder to get clients, that isn't my worry. The people that go to these kids are the people that would try and haggle us all down on price, and those people can jump off a bridge.... just kidding. However, the good clients will get sucked in to this as well and that doesn't need to happen. I guess this is my PSA of sorts.

This is your design....
This is your design from a contest site.... *slams it into a blender and presses puree*

 

[dlac]

I agree with all of the last few posts, even the , blah,blah, blah guy... When I was in the printing business from 1988-2005 I hired art, I bought art, I did art, Prior to the computer it was a real pain in the butt but it sure sorted out the good from the bad... a great stippler was a real find.. Then in 2005-2007 I actually did pretty good freelancing and picked up most of my work from the now defunct Fressner site.. This site is a little harder to find jobs because of the size of it, the rules in promoting yourself and the lack of an area where freelancers can advertise and show their abilities to people looking.. I have found the work I do get is by being pretty reasonably priced and keeping after it.. and so blah, blah, blah, does sound reasonable
dlac

 

[Mstevens_design]

Dlac,

The clients that my contract jobs end up putting me in touch with are really pained when I have to charge them to recreate their art. The biggest issue that they have is that good artists aren't being pushed as hard as the "contest sites". Then the uninformed client goes to the contest site thinking that everyone is equal in talent and knowledge.

So that I why I posted this up here. It wasn't to put my services up above anyone elses, or to preach to the clients that wouldn't use a good designer anyways. It was to inform potential clients of the pitfalls from using substandard work. It was to also preach that people stop pushing contest sites. I have no problem if people push sites like Elance to help find freelancers as people put in semi-realistic bids and quality bids will show over cheap bids.

So while "blah blah blah" seems like an appropriate answer if you are the type of person that will go to these contest sites and you haven't been burned yet. However, there are a ton of clients of mine that will proudly tell everyone they know to get a professional designer if they want quality the first time.

 

[bornover]

The more that I have been on here, the more that I have seen a trend towards the contest sites. The ones where a ton of "designers" will do a "design" and you choose which one you like best.

While this sounds like a great idea, it is far from it.

1. Think for an instant that you as a client do not know what a good design actually is. Now this isn't meant to be offensive, but to get you in the right mindset. Just because something looks great to you, doesn't mean that it is going to sell or is a good branding decision for your business. Good designers know the trends and will do the research to make sure that your design, logo, website, etc is timeless and puts your best foot forward. If just anyone could do what designers do... they would.

2. Good designers don't do spec work. Any designer that can make money doing this, is making money. So why would they want to spend many many hours designing something on the chance of payment? These contest sites are for children or untrained individuals that have free time. Think about it this way.... Would you rather eat at the restaurant that is busy or the restaurant that has had no one sitting in it all day, but is handing out free samples on toothpicks?

3. Price! You are getting that "original" design all for $50 and it normally costs $200. You know its a kid doing it and you're OK with that. Are you OK with taking it to your print shop and having that artist charge you with $175 in art charges to fix it? Just because it looks good doesnt mean that it is print ready. A proper artist will know the print specifications and will be able to save you on art charges from the printer.

So basically... Just Pay! It will save you headaches in the near future and if you build up a rapport with you professional designer, they tend to cut you a break later. Get to know us, and work with us and we will work with you on the cost of that next design.

I can't agree with you very much Matt. The post comes across, in my opinion, as taking a swipe at artists that do submit to sites like you mention, and that you don't like competing against a lesser priced vehicle for people to purchase artwork.

In your point #1, why would we assume that all artists and graphic designers are good at what they do and know what a good design is themselves. I say way too many don't know what a good design is in the area of context for the medium, format & layout, interpretation, and rhythm & flow of the artwork. And then a whole other group of people that market themselves as artists and graphic designers just can't draw that good. I know you talk about good designers, but if the average Joe doesn't know what a good design is, how can they know what a good designer is? Do only lousy designers submit on the contest sites? Do all good designers stay away from those sites? Obviously these are rhetorical questions and the answer is no.

Your point #2 says that the contest sites are for children or untrained individuals. So what if that were the case (which is unlikely that those are the only types of artists submitting)? I have seen many a kid that is untrained that has amazing talent, and naturally and instinctively knows what makes good artwork. I will take an artist like that over a educated so so talent out of art school any day. Now I won't knock an educated talent out of art school, I probably just can't afford them. Going with your analogy, what about the new restaurant that has great food that just has not been discovered by the community yet?

Point #3 of yours says basically the cheap art is not going to be print ready. Why, just because it is cheap? We are in the business of printing artwork on things, it is no problem for us to communicate to the artist the requirements for the art to be print ready.

I pay experienced and reputable artists for art, I buy clip art, I look for new upcoming artists I can hire cheap, I do my own art. I choose what resource is appropriate for the project, and I also am open for the new discovery of some talented uneducated kid artist to inspire a new project for my company.

Matt, if you are past the point of needing or wanting to submit entries on sites like the kind you mention, that is all well and good for you, but why do you feel the need to knock other artists that might just be starting out and use that vehicle as a way to build clientele? Like I mentioned, there are plenty of graphic design companies that pretend to be top notch outfits that do lousy work for a high price. There are 6 billion people in the world, you are going to run into competition every way you turn, but, you are also going to run into a potential customer every way you turn.

 

[ProSeparatorNJ]

Matt, if you are past the point of needing or wanting to submit entries on sites like the kind you mention, that is all well and good for you, but why do you feel the need to knock other artists that might just be starting out and use that vehicle as a way to build clientele?

I don't think he was so much knocking the artists, but more the way these sites work. They serve to lower the price and perceived value of art in general. I'm not knocking it though. I'm not knocking it though. It's called progress. Like machines replacing people in various industries. It's inevitable. The best thing to do move along with it. There's always money to be made if you're willing to go after it.

 

[Mstevens_design]

I can't agree with you very much Matt. The post comes across, in my opinion, as taking a swipe at artists that do submit to sites like you mention, and that you don't like competing against a lesser priced vehicle for people to purchase artwork.

In your point #1, why would we assume that all artists and graphic designers are good at what they do and know what a good design is themselves. I say way too many don't know what a good design is in the area of context for the medium, format & layout, interpretation, and rhythm & flow of the artwork. And then a whole other group of people that market themselves as artists and graphic designers just can't draw that good. I know you talk about good designers, but if the average Joe doesn't know what a good design is, how can they know what a good designer is? Do only lousy designers submit on the contest sites? Do all good designers stay away from those sites? Obviously these are rhetorical questions and the answer is no.

Your point #2 says that the contest sites are for children or untrained individuals. So what if that were the case (which is unlikely that those are the only types of artists submitting)? I have seen many a kid that is untrained that has amazing talent, and naturally and instinctively knows what makes good artwork. I will take an artist like that over a educated so so talent out of art school any day. Now I won't knock an educated talent out of art school, I probably just can't afford them. Going with your analogy, what about the new restaurant that has great food that just has not been discovered by the community yet?

Point #3 of yours says basically the cheap art is not going to be print ready. Why, just because it is cheap? We are in the business of printing artwork on things, it is no problem for us to communicate to the artist the requirements for the art to be print ready.

I pay experienced and reputable artists for art, I buy clip art, I look for new upcoming artists I can hire cheap, I do my own art. I choose what resource is appropriate for the project, and I also am open for the new discovery of some talented uneducated kid artist to inspire a new project for my company.

Matt, if you are past the point of needing or wanting to submit entries on sites like the kind you mention, that is all well and good for you, but why do you feel the need to knock other artists that might just be starting out and use that vehicle as a way to build clientele? Like I mentioned, there are plenty of graphic design companies that pretend to be top notch outfits that do lousy work for a high price. There are 6 billion people in the world, you are going to run into competition every way you turn, but, you are also going to run into a potential customer every way you turn.

I fully understand what you are saying and while that is true... not everyone on the contest sites are children or untrained and not every "professional" is good at what they do either.

Point #1 - You are very right there. Many "designers" certainly couldn't design themselves out of a paper bag if they wanted to. However, that is what their portfolio and references are for. In both ways, clients are very much just picking at random, but most of the "designers" on the contest sites are simply poor at what they do and they cant rely on designing for a steady income. Would you rather have someone that can pay the bills from their designs, or someone that has enough free time to do work for spec?

Point #2 - It actually is the case 99% of the time. While you are right that not every good designer is a college educated one (heck, I dropped out of college), to say that you are going to find some kid prodigy is far less likely than to say you are going to get some kid that can barely color a picture. Again, working for spec is just silly for any profession. As a printer, you wouldnt print a sample for free. So why would a designer do something on spec? simply put... They cant get clients normally, so they have to rely on contest sites for their cash.

Point #3 - You are right here. I don't mean to say that it will not be print ready because it is cheap, but because its a 14 year old that hasn't even seen a press, much less knew what was needed for printing. Again, you can get lucky and find someone on there with some knowledge of printing and get something good. However, it is far less likely than getting something at 72 DPI and 2 Inches wide.

You shouldn't let your neighbor kid tinker with your transmission and expect to get to work tomorrow. You shouldn't go to a contest site and expect to not pay another artist to get it recreated. If you understand the risks and do it anyways, then that is your prerogative and right to do so.

The original post was really to just inform people. Not to ridicule anyone that goes there now, or to shut those sites down. They have their merits and should stay up, but you should know what you are getting at the same time.

 

[Mstevens_design]

Matt, if you are past the point of needing or wanting to submit entries on sites like the kind you mention, that is all well and good for you, but why do you feel the need to knock other artists that might just be starting out and use that vehicle as a way to build clientele?

I am very much knocking a lot of the artists on those contest sites. I have no shame in it either. There are always a few good people on those sites that just don't know any better.

So for those artists that may be reading.... Get off those contest sites and get in touch with your local printers. Your local printers would love to have a good, hardworking person either as their main artist or as a backup. I guarantee that if you visit 10 of your local, small print shops and show a portfolio around, you will get at least 1 paying project and possibly a whole contract with them to do all their work.

DO NOT WORK FOR SPEC! Just because we draw pretty pictures for a living, does not mean that it doesn't take time and that we should throw around ideas without getting paid.

 

[bornover]

Matt, my point is to say there is garbage on both ends and dynamite stuff on both ends, and to tell people, buyers and artists, not to go to one end does not seem right. I don't agree that 99% of the stuff on the graphic submission sites is garbage. A lot is garbage, but a surprising amount is decent, and some of it is really good. I also know up and comers use those types of sites as vehicles to gain clientele because I know of several.

 

[dlac]

WOW! Way to much information to digest.. Holy Cow batman.. One of the points everyone is making and yet finding it written is a little difficult. Screen Print art just like vinyl art is different from offset art. We are here looking for art jobs because ( I hope we are screen print artists.) We all have computers, Corel, Illustrator, Photoshop and some of us still use some Freehand. We know about DPI's, we know about screen angles, we know what works on a 56 mesh and what takes a 305. Some one can draw and create up a storm and not understand any of the things unique to our industry So the boss's daughter can draw the hell out of pony but when Dad goes to use it to make a shirt he has to go and pay someone, usually an employee of said printer to redo lil darlings art..WE (us low life freelancers) mostly are looking for newbies, mom and pop shops with no artist or very busy shops who are looking for outside help and they already know, for the most part, who can help them and who are just in the way.. In the contest art fore mentioned here, if the contest is for screen printed designs, the best design might not always be the easist to print. So again here we are hanging out and searching for that next lil job.
AND MAY ALL THE CONTEST WINNERS NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT SCREEN PRINTING..
dlac

 

[splathead]

This argument is as old as the internet. Not only has it been addressed here on the forum numerous times, it's repeated across all industries.

Sticker price automobile dealer vs. Ebay Motors
6% fee Real Estate Broker vs flatfeelistings.com
$240 an hour Attorney vs legalzoom.com

Graphic artist vs the crowdspring.coms' of the world.

Browsing these contest sites, it's not just the uninformed who are creating contests. It's Starbucks, Lilith Fair, Forbes, SXSW, Stone Temple Pilots, etc. Certainly none are slouches when it comes to knowing about creativity and design.

I said it in the other post, and it's an understatement, the internet has changed the whole game. Complain as you will, but it's only going to get worse. Stay the course and perish, or adapt, innovate and flourish.

It's no longer good enough to be a great graphic artist. You also have to be a great marketer, innovator and visionary. Those that aren't will be in a new profession in the coming years. Those that are will do fine.

Yours, and the graphic industry's self preservation efforts are understandable, even noble. But you're down by 9 with only 30 seconds left in the 4th quarter. Can you pull it out? Miracles can happen. But I wouldn't put my money on it.

 

[Viper Graphics]

"Complain as you will, but it's only going to get worse. Stay the course and perish, or adapt, innovate and flourish.

It's no longer good enough to be a great graphic artist. You also have to be a great marketer, innovator and visionary. Those that aren't will be in a new profession in the coming years. Those that are will do fine.

Yours, and the graphic industry's self preservation efforts are understandable, even noble. But you're down by 9 with only 30 seconds left in the 4th quarter. Can you pull it out? Miracles can happen. But I wouldn't put my money on it"

Well said my friend, very true!

 

[dlac]

IT'S 101 TO 103, THE CONTESTS ARE LEADING, THERE'S THREE SECONDS LEFT ON THE CLOCK, DLAC IS DRIBBLING UP THE FLOOR AT SPEED, SWEAT POURING FROM HIS BROW, (he's 68 you know) HALF COURT HE SEES MS STEVENS IN THE CORNER, HE THROWS THE BALL LIKE A ROCKET, STEVENS GRAPS IT, SHOOTS THE THREE, IT HITS THE RIM, SHOOTS UP INTO THE AIR AND AS THE BUZZER SOUNDS IT FALLS THROUGH THE RIM.. WOW,,, FINAL SCORE, ARTISTS 104, CONTESTS 103. YIKES who would have believed that..
dlac

 

[starchild]

Are we talking about crowdsourcing?

Freecreditreport.com uses it to find their new band
mountain dew uses it for their new cans and adds and music for the adds.

And many major coporations are using it sucessfully.
You just have to look and be aware of what is going on my friend.

Being a part of (we the consumer) building the product or service is the name of the game.

WE WANT CONTROL!!!!

 

[starchild]

I forgot to mention the most popular of them all- American Idol
Designing is an art form. When you are getting paid it's business.

Looks like you found your niche: Find businesses that agree with your point of view and keep 100% of that market share. Good Luck

 

[miktoxic]

i think the bottom line is nobody wants to pay for anything anymore. and why should they when they get the work they need done for next to nothing by morons who are doing nothing but driving down the market in their own so-called profession.

 

[Mstevens_design]

IT'S 101 TO 103, THE CONTESTS ARE LEADING, THERE'S THREE SECONDS LEFT ON THE CLOCK, DLAC IS DRIBBLING UP THE FLOOR AT SPEED, SWEAT POURING FROM HIS BROW, (he's 68 you know) HALF COURT HE SEES MS STEVENS IN THE CORNER, HE THROWS THE BALL LIKE A ROCKET, STEVENS GRAPS IT, SHOOTS THE THREE, IT HITS THE RIM, SHOOTS UP INTO THE AIR AND AS THE BUZZER SOUNDS IT FALLS THROUGH THE RIM.. WOW,,, FINAL SCORE, ARTISTS 104, CONTESTS 103. YIKES who would have believed that..
dlac

Haha, I suck at basketball, so we would probably lose if you passed to me. Give me the ball at the 1 yard line in a football game and I promise that bad boy is getting in though.

As far as other brand name companies using crowdsourcing... that is a false myth. What you see as Starbucks and Stone Temple Pilots, is actually a marketing company that is working on spec themselves. They have no "in" with these companies or bands and they want to pitch a bunch of designs to them. I have been a part of those marketing companies pitching stuff to Coca-Cola and the Zack Brown Band and Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines..... it sucks, you never have a real idea of what they want and it all becomes a shot in the dark. Everyone ends up getting inferior work because of that too.

Artists do it because they can't get steady income in from real paying work, it really is that simple. Whether they are untalented, untrained, young, new to the game, or just plain ignorant to the ways of business, it all plays out the same.

Also, I could care less if other professions have this going on. I care about designing as it is an artform. Once people are creating solely based on quick contests, the whole profession suffers and so does your art. It then emphasizes quick and dirty over well thought out and brandable.

Saying that it is the way of the future is a huge cop-out to me. Just because more companies are jumping on board with crowdsourcing doesnt mean it is better or even cheaper. As my points have been stated, it in most cases will cost you more and isn't as good. That's like saying that everyone is shooting themselves in the foot now-a-days..... its stupid, you shouldn't do it and you should tell other people to stop doing it. Just because something is becoming popular, doesn't mean it is better in any way, it just means that crowdsourcing has better marketing behind it.