White Underbase for Bright Colors on Dark Garments

4092 Views 16 Replies 5 Participants Last post by BroJames, Mar 19, 2014

dwsurfshop

Discussion Starter · Mar 17, 2014

I have a question for screen printers who work mostly with plastisol inks. As a t-shirt entrepreneur who has his t-shirts screen printed, I learned early on that printing bright colors on dark t-shirts and other apparel required a white underbase. The reason this underbase is necessary is that it prevents the bright colors from being dulled by the underlying color of the garment.

I am also a blogger, and I was set to review a t-shirt that I was told had been screen printed. The print has bright colors like red and green, and it has the feel of plastisol ink. What I can't understand is that it doesn't have a white underbase. How can this be? (When I washed the shirt, the colors did not fade.)

Is there a plastisol screen printing method that can dispense with a white underbase? I know that discharge ink can dispense with an underbase, but I'm pretty sure it's not discharge ink because the ink is lying on top of the shirt (not sinking into the fibers) as plastisol does.

On the other hand, maybe it's not a screen print. Maybe it's a heat transfer. But the ink has that rough, plastic feel of plastisol ink.

I'm sure it's hard to solve this riddle without having the t-shirt in front of you, but if you can help me out with any theories, I'd appreciate it.

Anthony F.

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iCreateGraphix

· #2 · Mar 17, 2014

dwsurfshop said:
I have a question for screen printers who work mostly with plastisol inks. As a t-shirt entrepreneur who has his t-shirts screen printed, I learned early on that printing bright colors on dark t-shirts and other apparel required a white underbase. The reason this underbase is necessary is that it prevents the bright colors from being dulled by the underlying color of the garment.

I am also a blogger, and I was set to review a t-shirt that I was told had been screen printed. The print has bright colors like red and green, and it has the feel of plastisol ink. What I can't understand is that it doesn't have a white underbase. How can this be? (When I washed the shirt, the colors did not fade.)

Is there a plastisol screen printing method that can dispense with a white underbase? I know that discharge ink can dispense with an underbase, but I'm pretty sure it's not discharge ink because the ink is lying on top of the shirt (not sinking into the fibers) as plastisol does.

On the other hand, maybe it's not a screen print. Maybe it's a heat transfer. But the ink has that rough, plastic feel of plastisol ink.

I'm sure it's hard to solve this riddle without having the t-shirt in front of you, but if you can help me out with any theories, I'd appreciate it.

Anthony F.

They may have printed and flashed several times (3-4 layers of ink). If the ink has a rough feel, this is probably the case. Because going under the flash dryer that many times begins to burn the tshirt fibers making the print feel rough.
Just a question: how do you know there is no base? You looked at the print inside out right?

www.icreatescreenprinting.com

Sent from my iPhone using TShirtForums app

BroJames

· #3 · Mar 17, 2014

How many colors are there in the shirt? If the edge of the colors feels absolutely flat it is possible that it is paper or printed vinyl transfer.

Do you have a close up picture?

It is also possible the the "underbase" is discharge.

DNeeld

· #4 · Mar 17, 2014

First, how do you know it doesn't have an underbase?

Second, just the underbase could have been discharge and the top colors plastisol.

dwsurfshop

Discussion Starter · #5 · Mar 17, 2014

iCreateGraphix,

Thanks for the response. Yes, I looked at the t-shirt inside out. Could not see any white. In fact, inside out the color looks like the color that's printed. I think your theory has weight because the ink feels thick as if there is an underbase.

Like I said, I'm not an expert. I just know some basics for my business. For example, I recently learned that there is a "wet-on-wet" technique that bypasses an underbase, but that usually results in a washed out look (I've only seen that used for opaque colors like black, burgundy, etc.) I didn't know that some printers might just use 3-4 layers of ink.

You mention a burning of fibers. If I turned the t-shirt inside out and felt the inside of the print, would the shirt feel a little burned? Thanks.

dwsurfshop

Discussion Starter · #6 · Mar 17, 2014

BroJames,

Thanks for the reply. The edges don't feel flat. If it was discharge ink, wouldn't the color on the inside of the shirt look changed, like bleached out? Inside out, you can see the same color on the inside that's on the front, and the ink looks like it's sitting on top of the shirt. I thought discharge would bleed into the shirt. I'm not an expert, just some basic knowledge. I didn't know you could post a picture. I'll look into that. If I can't post a picture directly, maybe I post a link to a cloud storage account like Google Drive. Thanks again.

dwsurfshop

Discussion Starter · #7 · Mar 17, 2014

DNeel,

Thanks for the help. The reason I don't think there's discharge is that the fibers underneath don't look changed at all. They're the same color. I thought discharge would bleach out the underlying fibers. Also, I can see the same color on the inside that's on the outside, and the ink is just sitting on the shirt.

I'm leaning towards iCreateGraphix's theory, though I'm not so sure there are 3-4 layers of ink. That sounds pretty thick. I don't think it's a heat transfer cause I've felt those before. It's not as smooth, and usually there's a layer of white.

I'm writing a t-shirt review, and I just want to get the info right. I tried contacting the printer, but I haven't heard back. Thanks again.

DNeeld

· #8 · Mar 17, 2014

Looking the same inside out, I would guess plasticharge.

iCreateGraphix

· #9 · Mar 18, 2014

dwsurfshop said:
iCreateGraphix,

Thanks for the response. Yes, I looked at the t-shirt inside out. Could not see any white. In fact, inside out the color looks like the color that's printed. I think your theory has weight because the ink feels thick as if there is an underbase.

Like I said, I'm not an expert. I just know some basics for my business. For example, I recently learned that there is a "wet-on-wet" technique that bypasses an underbase, but that usually results in a washed out look (I've only seen that used for opaque colors like black, burgundy, etc.) I didn't know that some printers might just use 3-4 layers of ink.

You mention a burning of fibers. If I turned the t-shirt inside out and felt the inside of the print, would the shirt feel a little burned? Thanks.

No, the shirt wouldn't really feel burnt. And most people wouldn't even be able to tell (or even notice the fuzziness) but the constant heat will take away the nice smooth print. This is why most printers go for the under base instead of multiple ink layers...just better general print quality.
There's a design we did today which we ditched the underbase on because the lines were so thin and giving us trouble to register.

www.icreatescreenprinting.com

Sent from my iPhone using TShirtForums app

BroJames

· #10 · Mar 18, 2014 (Edited)

Anthony, yes discharge ink would generally penetrate to the other side of the shirt. I have not tried discharge though.Only what is sold here as "x-charge" which is for cotton-polyester shirts.

To share some thought, it is possible that the first coat(or two) of some high opacity ink is pressed hard so that the ink penetrates the shirt. Subsequent coat(s) are then pressed only with enough pressure so that the ink lies on top of the shirt. Then, a final coat(s) of clear ink(base) for the shine.

keepitspinning

· #11 · Mar 18, 2014

One of the things that you've insinuated that I find interesting is, you are judging whether an under base is used by the inside of the shirt.
First of all, if printed properly, plastisols are laid on top of the fabric, not driven through the fabric, which means you can not tell by the inside of the shirt.
We print using spot and spot process, and you could not tell from the inside of our shirts if there is an underbase.
The same can be said for discharge. If you don't drive it all of the way through the shirt, it may or may not show.
A better way to tell if there is an underbase is look at all of the print edges under magnification.
If registration is perfect, that still won't tell, but rarely will it be that perfect unless the printer is realy good, or if traps are being used, and if traps are used, you will see the very edges of the color change. If the color gets darker or more subdued at the edge, there is an under base but it is well hid.
If you can see the print on the insides of the shirts you are buying, I'd look for a new printer. I wouldn't want to wear them. It is called "heavy hand" and is like wearing a bullet proof vest.

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BroJames

· #12 · Mar 18, 2014

Hello Bob, that's an interesting post. I reread the OP's post and he did not mention the color of the shirt. Because of the underbase question I had presumed that the print is on a black or some dark colored shirt otherwise there is no need for an underbase. I also presumed that the OP is aware of this.

You can see some clue of a white plastisol underbase on black shirts if you stretch the shirt with the inside-out under a light especially if the fabric is not heavy.

To the, OP what is the color of the shirt?

keepitspinning

· #13 · Mar 18, 2014

I would agree that if the shirts are printed on a manual press, where it it is difficult to achieve the same squeegee pressure with every print, you might be able to see traces of an underbase. Properly printed using an automatic, with a higher mesh used for underbase, that is not the case. Many assume that an underbase has to use a low mesh count screen. It is not so. Depending on the print, a more than apple underbase can be achieved with a 180, 228, even a 300 if done properly. Again the key is pressure and tight mesh so the ink can contact the fabric, the mesh snap away, so the ink is on top of the fabric, nit driven down into or through the fabric. On most of our prints, you would have a better chance looking for a registration hint than looking on the inside. I grabbed a discharge print we did, and we had to hit it pretty hard, and there is barely hits of it on the inside. Had it been a light print, there may be no evidence. Shirt is a 6.1oz.

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dwsurfshop

Discussion Starter · #14 · Mar 18, 2014

BroJames said:
You can see some clue of a white plastisol underbase on black shirts if you stretch the shirt with the inside-out under a light especially if the fabric is not heavy.

The shirt was black. And yes BroJames, that's exactly what I did.

Anyways, mystery solved. The printer who did the shirt I was reviewing finally emailed me back and iCreateGraphix was correct. He printed the shirt with the bright colors, flash dried them, then printed the same colors again (just 2 layers, not 3-4 though.)

I guess that makes sense. I just assumed, given my experience, that all underbases were white. But I guess just printing the same colors twice, but flash drying the first layer, would accomplish the same thing.

I also thank keepitspinning for pointing out the alternative techniques. Like I said previously, I only have basic knowledge of screen printing, but I'm sure there's numerous techniques to avoid a heavy hand. The problem is finding screen printers in your local area who are trained in all the alternative techniques. For example, there's maybe one in Vegas that works with discharge ink (most printers here use plastisol because it doesn't muck up the screen as quickly cause of the heat.) As for the other techniques keepitspinning mentioned, I haven't encountered any printers here that advanced. But I'll keep my eyes open.

Thanks again everybody for all the input. I learned something.

Anthony F.

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keepitspinning

· #15 · Mar 18, 2014

I have to make a few comments on the final post. I've been printing for twenty years now. I started out with absolutely zero knowledge in this feild, started printing on a piece of crap manual, which we quickly got rid of. Point being, I've experienced all of the trials and trivulations a screen printer can experience, but sought out experienced veterans to teach me how to do it right.
Based on that, there are only a few reasons why a screen printer prints same color over same color. He/she has not accomplished using an under base, is to lazy to make the second screen and do it right, or it is a cost factor on a short run.
We are occassionally guilty of the last. A customer will want something like a 123 gold printed on black T-shirts and they only need 4 or 5. We'll do the print, flash print.
Not proud of it, but it is the only way to keep the cost down on a short run.
The other two resons for doing this run hand in hand.
Printing an underbase can be a very tricky and a frustrating thing, therefore it is just easier to double print.
If you are doing that, you will never be a "good" screen printer because everything will be heavy hand, and while you would thing yellow under yellow as an underbase provides the same results as white under yellow, WRONG.
You can therorize and argue that I am wrong, but try it.
Even a light coat of white will provide better results than a double or triple coat of a color on itself (on a dark shirt).
I have a hard time belieiving that in a city the size of Vegas there aren't any printers that are "doing it right".
I would go out on a limb and say those who don't learn to do it right won't be around in 3-5 years, but I have two compeditors that have been doing it longer than I, and they are still using methods from the 70's. Luckily for one of them of them is sporting good store and printing is a secondary business and customers have accepted their poor printing.
Unfortunately for them when customers see what we can do, they loose a customer.

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dwsurfshop

Discussion Starter · #16 · Mar 18, 2014

keepitspinning said:
I have a hard time believing that in a city the size of Vegas there aren't any printers that are "doing it right".

Just to be clear, the t-shirt I was examining that printed same color on color came from someplace else, not Vegas. As I mentioned, I was reviewing it for a blog of mine, which is not connected to my t-shirt business.

Plenty of screen printers in Vegas that use a white underbase. It was in a previous response (not my last one) that I stated that I haven't found many printers using some of those more advanced techniques you were talking about.

Thanks for your feedback, though. I'm not a printer myself, but I like to know as much as possible about screen printing for my business and blog, and you provided some good information.

BroJames

· #17 · Mar 19, 2014

BroJames said:
... To share some thought, it is possible that the first coat(or two) of some high opacity ink is pressed hard so that the ink penetrates the shirt. Subsequent coat(s) are then pressed only with enough pressure so that the ink lies on top of the shirt. Then, a final coat(s) of clear ink(base) for the shine.

2 strokes should be high opacity inks. I wonder what ink he used.

Using a white, or using the first stroke of a top coat, as underbase will depend on the design and the colors. Yellow, orange, pink, aqua or other colors lighter than green or red may require more than 2 coats.

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