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Hi all,
Weird washing question thingy, but here's how I got here- After several trips to the T-Jet place here in Orlando and lots of talks and bunches of samples, we put our order in (install next week :)).
The samples I'm questioning about here where made for us by a T-Jet tech at there showroom. He steped me through the pre-treats and everything. They are:
1) Haynes White 100% cotton / pretreated with Fast Bright Color Pre Treat / Full color image with a white undercoat.
-and-
2) Haynes Black 100% cotton / pretreated with Fast Ink White Pre Treat / Full color image with a white undercoat.
Using the FastINK 3 for all samples.
Now the washing question: I washed the samples (whites separate from colors) twice with excellent results. Mild detergent / cold wash / soft cycle. Then air dried. I was quite happy. Very little color lost. :) What a beautiful thing.
On the third wash, I had the same results with the washing, but I decided to use the clothes dryer on low to dry the shirts. Now, both the whites and blacks shirts washed fine. Still looking very good before the drying.
I first dried the dark shirts, and they did fine. NO real change. But the white shirts didn't hold up as well. They looked great before drying, keeping the brights colors bright and the darks still strong. But after the dryer heat dried the shirts, some of the color, mostly in the dark colors, faded.
Not sure what happened. Anyone have an idea. I know that the pre-treats are different- think that had something to do with it?
Any suggestions???
I can't wait to get the printer and get started. Just want to start on the right foot. Thanks in advance all the help.

Thomas @ 01comics
 

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I don't know about the t-jet but all the DTG printers use dupont water based ink. I also don't know why you need a pretreatment on light shirts. Brother and Anajet don't require them to be. The variable I see here is humidity in the air and shirts. If the shirt has moisture in it the print will be weak, for lack of another word. If you take the moisture out of the shirt in a dryer be it heat press, conveyer or tumble dry you shouldn't need to pretreat. If you screen print with waterbased ink you can just let them air dry and there fine. Just my thoughts, John
 

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Hi all,
Weird washing question thingy, but here's how I got here- After several trips to the T-Jet place here in Orlando and lots of talks and bunches of samples, we put our order in (install next week :)).
The samples I'm questioning about here where made for us by a T-Jet tech at there showroom. He steped me through the pre-treats and everything. They are:
1) Haynes White 100% cotton / pretreated with Fast Bright Color Pre Treat / Full color image with a white undercoat.
-and-
2) Haynes Black 100% cotton / pretreated with Fast Ink White Pre Treat / Full color image with a white undercoat.
Using the FastINK 3 for all samples.
Now the washing question: I washed the samples (whites separate from colors) twice with excellent results. Mild detergent / cold wash / soft cycle. Then air dried. I was quite happy. Very little color lost. :) What a beautiful thing.
On the third wash, I had the same results with the washing, but I decided to use the clothes dryer on low to dry the shirts. Now, both the whites and blacks shirts washed fine. Still looking very good before the drying.
I first dried the dark shirts, and they did fine. NO real change. But the white shirts didn't hold up as well. They looked great before drying, keeping the brights colors bright and the darks still strong. But after the dryer heat dried the shirts, some of the color, mostly in the dark colors, faded.
Not sure what happened. Anyone have an idea. I know that the pre-treats are different- think that had something to do with it?
Any suggestions???
I can't wait to get the printer and get started. Just want to start on the right foot. Thanks in advance all the help.

Thomas @ 01comics

If they used the FastCOLOR Pretreatment for the white shirts and then printed a white ink underbase on it that would explain why your ink is washing out. FastCOLOR is not intended for use with white ink. It is intended to be used as a pretreatment for white and light colored garments to help brighten the print and also increase washability. It is not to be used with white ink and will not work with white ink.

I have noticed posts by some users of the T-Jet and other printer brands who are printing a white underbase on white shirts. There is no reason to do this at all. You are wasting both time and money by doing so. If you need brighter prints on white shirts then either use FastCOLOR or do a double print pass. Either method is cheaper, faster, and will give you much better results then a white underpass.

Harry
 

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Harry, we do water base printing every once in a while in our screen printing business, we have automatics and its a bear at break time as the screen needs to be kept wet. We use no pre treatment or special drying (we have a gas conveyor) Why does DTG on lights need a pretreatment? Its my understanding that when water base dries it not going to wash out. Just my wondering mind.
John
 

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Harry I agree, why would the tech print a white underbase on a white shirt? very wierd. That would probably be a problem :) Also it almost sounds like maybe the light shirt does not have a white underbase but, that the shirt is showing fibrilation, from the fibers lifting in the dryer. If you were to iron the shirt chances are you would see its not color fading, so much as its just the fibers lifting on the shirt.

John, the light pretreatment is not required by any machine, it is a option to make your prints wash better and have better brighter colors. It is in no way required for printing and light color shirt, for any printer. It just will give a better product using it. I dont use it when I am doing contract printing, but the option is there for my customers that would like a better lasting shirt. I have stated this in many threads where the assumption is made that it is required. It is not, its simply an option to have a better lasting product.

My best advice to understand this john is maybe try it on a couple of light color or white shirts, and you will see what I am talking about :) The one I use is the one from Harry, the fast color pretreat, I have tried the others and they really dont make a difference. And again I dont always use it, just if a customer requests it, or I am selling a higher dollar product that I am worried about having the best quality I can get.
 
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Bobby, I know this may sound crass, but it's a tee shirt. We are new to the DTG but have a lot of years in screen printing. I guess the difference is selling 24 vs 200 or 30,000. If the shirt is cured correctly then it should last. I love this forum as we can talk about the good's and bad's and I do learn. I welcome all the advice I can get. I hope in some way I can give it back.
John :)
 

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I totally agree John it is just a t-shirt haha, but you would be amazed at some of my customers expectations, which I do charge more for :) I do alot of printing for artists and photographers that want the best they can get as far as detail, print and washability. It is just one of those items that really does make a difference, but it is not neccessary. I dont use it on my contact print services like I said unless the customer requests it, but on those special items that are higher priced, it definately makes a noticable difference. Believe me I have been printing well over a year with my printer, and I do not have any problems with curing. It doesnt matter how you cure, the difference is simply the pretreatment, nothing to do with curing properly. Even curing properly you will notice a difference with and without the pretreatment.

By the way John how are things going with your printer? are you having fun :) I loved figuring out all the different stuff I could do when I got my machine, they are great.
 
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We've had our Anajet running just over a week, were defused!!! Not a miss spelling...lol There's a learning curve but we will get there. Well its almost noon in Dallas, 12 AM so, Good night all. John :)
 

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Part of the problem is not all the inks are the same. The R & H that BobbyLee uses is a great ink! We used R&H for almost two years very successfully until we switched to a new ink that is not DuPont. These two inks have very little fading problem and cure easily.

Anajet uses DuPont ink (T-jet's Fast ink 3 is DuPont also isn't it?). It is a little more touchy on cure times to prevent fading in the wash-and benefits more from the Fast color pretreatment. It needs a very long cure time of 120 or even more seconds at about 330 degrees.

AA new ink and DTG new textile bright are also presumably not DuPont. I have not used them so I don't know if pretreatment would benefit them on white shirts.

I am curious about the Fast Color Pretreatment- is its primary function to keep the fibers laying down to reduce fibrillation? I know it is a very important part of the white ink pretreatment to keep the fibers down, but I wasn't sure if it is the same with the light color pretreatment.
 

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Thanks to everyone for the discussion-
Tell me if I'm wrong (really- I need to know:)) but US Screens sells for the T-Jets, 3 different pre-treatments. Of course the "Fast Ink White Pre Treat" that you have to use for the dark shirts; "Fast Bright Pre Treat" for use on light shirts that enhance the brightness and allows you to use an undercoat if you want; and "Fast Color Pre Treat" for light shirts that helps with color brightness and washability (w/out undercoats).
So with dark shirts we have one printing oprion: must use Fast Ink White Pre Treat. And with the light shirts we have three options: Fast Bright Pre Treat, Fast Color Pre Treat or use nothing at all.

Correct?

Thanks-

Thomas @ 01Comics
 

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Here is a quick breakdown of the FastINK pretreatments:

White Pretreatment - for white ink on dark and light colored garments.

FastBright Pretreatment: for white ink on light colored garments.

FastCOLOR Pretreatment: for brighter prints and increased washability on white and light colored garments. Not for use with white ink.

We sell a very large amount of White Pretreatment and FastCOLOR. We sell very little FastBright. Most customers find that the White Pretreatment works equally well on both dark and light shirts.

Harry
 

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AA new ink and DTG new textile bright are also presumably not DuPont. I have not used them so I don't know if pretreatment would benefit them on white shirts.

I am curious about the Fast Color Pretreatment- is its primary function to keep the fibers laying down to reduce fibrillation? I know it is a very important part of the white ink pretreatment to keep the fibers down, but I wasn't sure if it is the same with the light color pretreatment.

The FastCOLOR Pretreatment acts like a primer on top of the shirt. It's similar to using a primer when painting a wall. The primer helps the adhesion of the paint on the wall and allows you to cover the wall with one coat instead of multiple coats.

I can only answer your question about FastCOLOR being useful to printers using other ink brands by saying that we have quite a few Brother, DTG, Flexijet, and Anajet users buying it. And constantly reordering it.

Harry
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Thanks Harry... So what's the difference -or- why are there two different pretreats for the white undercoats? If they both work the same.
AND what exactly is "fibrillation"? Thanks.

Thomas @ Ka-Blam
 

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Fibrillation means small fibers sticking up out of the ink on a garment. Especially when seen on a print on a dark garment it comes off looking like poor ink coverage since the fibers look like unprinted spots.

The FastINK White Pretreatment can be used on dark and light garments for white ink. FastBright will not give you sufficient white ink coverage on dark shirts and was designed only to be used with white ink on light colored garments.

Harry
 

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To avoid help fibrillation with white ink printing it is important to apply a sufficient coat of pretreatment. It is also very important to press the pretreatment properly for the correct amount of time and pressure. You should use the right kind of parchment paper (non-silicone coated) or butcher paper as a cover sheet when pressing. If your cover sheet sticks at all when you're removing it you are probably also removing some of the pretreatment so make sure it comes off smoothly. Stickiness may mean that you did not apply enough pretreatment or did not press it sufficiently.

Harry
 

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I have to to agree with harry here on the paper :) Its important to use the quilan parchment as it does not have any coating on it.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
First off, thanks Harry! You, BobbieLee (sunnydayz), AUGuide and the others all sure know your stuff and are on top of it helping us all out- Way Thanks!

Is there a "Once and for All/Complete/Set in Stone/Bible" step by step guide here someplace that goes over the pretreatment processes? It seems to me that alot of noobs (soon to be myself on Wednesday :)) complain that either their machines don't work as they where told they would and/or the whole practice of DTG printing isn't ready yet. BUT you guys know it's ready and works quite well (and getting better).

As I see it, with just being here such a short time and jumping in with both feet, the KEY to a successful DTG shirt printing is two parts- 1) Keep your printer in Tip-Top running shape (stay on top of your daily maintenance), and 2) Properly pre-treating the shirts. Doing those will let the inks do what they where designed to do- decorating fabric.

Hey AUGuide, when will the MultiRip be ready for the T-Jets?

Thomas @ Ka-Blam

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/members/sunnydayz.html
 

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There really is not a set in stone method per say, as each person's method will vary a little :) Here is a thread about someone that had a problem with pretreating, I list a very detailed explanation of the way I do it, there is also feedback from other users. This should give you a pretty good idea of how to do it http://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-garment-dtg-inkjet-printing/t52278.html , remember curing properly also will effect the results. But yes you do have a understanding of two very important things to remember :) If you need any other help let us know. Also a good way of getting more information on pretreatment is using the search box at the top of the page and input pretreatment with white ink. It should bring up many results. Hope this helps :)
 
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