[jemmyell]

I would like to get some input from other sublimators doing tiles for architectural applications.

There is a difference between suppliers and their recommendations for high UV environment installations. Bison says "Don't do it" and features outside applications on their website.

Premiere says their coatings have special UV
inhibitors.

I'd like to get beyond the smoke and mirrors
and get some input from people with real experience doing tile with dye sub.

Is premiere really better than bison?

Is it OK to install outside if it is
in shade?

What is the expected lifetime?

In closing I would like to offer a new installation
that is featured in TILE magazine. From what I
know this is just wrong and will have a short
lifetime.

Tile May/June 2012

You can see this at the surfaceimpressions.com website also. As far as I know an installation like this should only last about a year or less.

-James

 

[mgparrish]

I would like to get some input from other sublimators doing tiles for architectural applications.

There is a difference between suppliers and their recommendations for high UV environment installations. Bison says "Don't do it" and features outside applications on their website.

Premiere says their coatings have special UV
inhibitors.

I'd like to get beyond the smoke and mirrors
and get some input from people with real experience doing tile with dye sub.

Is premiere really better than bison?

Is it OK to install outside if it is
in shade?

What is the expected lifetime?

In closing I would like to offer a new installation
that is featured in TILE magazine. From what I
know this is just wrong and will have a short
lifetime.

Tile May/June 2012

You can see this at the surfaceimpressions.com website also. As far as I know an installation like this should only last about a year or less.

-James

James,

There really are no other sublimators doing tiles for architectural applications outdoors, if there ever were any they are long out of business because sublimation is not, nor has ever been an outdoor product.

It's one thing to sell a sublimation vanity car license plate for $15 and fade after a year or so, but selling a mural for hundreds or thousands of bucks to fade soon is not a self sustaining business model.

Sublimation tile life outside is not good enough to sell to a customer unless they plan to reinstall new every year. The problem is that the dyes are prone to migration due to UV. In direct sunlight in AZ where I am at would be lucky to last a year tops before it looks gory, and maybe I am being overly optimistic.

You can't really predict the tile life due to location, I could only state the tile image life would be longer in Canada than in AZ.

It comes down to physics, clear coatings do not really block UV, some might slow it down a little bit. The bottom line is that if an overcoat allows you to see thru the overcoat then light gets thru, overwise you wouldn't be able to see it.

If there were some "magic" to this then our car windshields would not have to be tinted or our sunglasses would not have to have be tinted material to filter out the sunlight UV. There it would be a killer application if it really were possible.

You could slow it down further by using more filtering like with window tinting, but that defeats the purpose of the art ... you need to see it.

The only process that really works for permanent tile installation is by using ceramic laser toner and kiln fired decals.

"Ceramic" toner gets it's color from minerals ... in other words the same thing that colors rocks. Rocks don't fade in the sun and have been around millions of years.

See this post, it is very detailed on laser ceramic toner. It's really the only good process out there for this.

DSSI

This laser or copier equipment and toner is pricey but it is possible to have decals made then you apply the decals yourself to home depot type tiles and kiln bake yourself. Kilns vary i price but most can afford those.

 

[jemmyell]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for that link. I have read that entire thread. I think this technology has great promise but since I am home based currently I will have to wait and see. Maybe I will give the contract route a go to see what the market will bear here. It is certainly true there will be less competiton than in sublimation.

The big problem I am currently having with tile sublimation is unethical vendors doing installations that will not persist. I have turned down two of these jobs recently.

I do think both the bison and premiere tile (matte finish) will do just fine for showers and backsplahes inside. The shiny tiles are also good for decorative murals with the requisite cleaning instructions.

These are things I can currently make at home.

BUT DCT will be at NBM Long Beach again. I will talk to them at length about the contracting (both decals and making tiles). There is a ceramics studio in Long Beach that will do contract firing and rent a workspace also.

I wonder about transporting tiles to be fired after the decals are attached, probably just something to be tried.

 

[jemmyell]

Ok, to clarify my questions again. Has anybody physically tested premieres extended UV resistance claim. They do have some static test claims:

Light Fastness of Ink and Coating – PrimaTile’s™ surface is widely recognized as the whitest available and incorporates UV light inhibitors in the coating process to minimize fading from harsh light and the sun. Our PrimaTile ™ passed over 200 hours of Xenon Arc Lamp exposure with no fade, no ink color change, and no yellowing.

Does anybody have any idea what "200 hours of Xenon Arc Lamp exposure" means in terms of real sunlight???

 

[charles95405]

I live just north of San Francisco...and yes I have tested...I did sublimation tiles to be placed on park benches...they lasted about 6 months...You just can't place sublimation tiles in direct sunlight...it will definitely fade...

 

[jemmyell]

Hi,

My big concern is the very casual presentation of outside installations that I see frequently. Have a look at Bison's slideshow:

[URL="http://www.bisoncoating.com/"]http://www.bisoncoating.com/[/URL]

Does Paul visit here? I'd like to hear about the reasoning behind the implied endorsement of outside installations by that slideshow.

This makes a BIG problem when I turn down a job since it 'appears' that the 'big boys' know how to do this.

AND having that article appear in TILE magazine is simply horrifying!

-James

 

[Fenrir]

You could do a few and leave them outside for awhile and then show them to customers when they say "but I saw on this website..."

Hmm, I wonder whether a good coat of marine spar varnish would help or if it would just ruin the print.

 

[charles95405]

here is a quote from Bison Coating...direct from their website under FAQ

How do the images hold up under UV exposure?
We do NOT recommend any sublimation tiles for exterior use or any application where there is direct UV Exposure

So that should settle the question of outside in direct sun question.

 

[jemmyell]

Lol,

Yes, BUT. The parent company of Bison is Images in Tile. Take a look at their portfolio and you will see MANY installations exposed to direct sun.

Images In Tile | Gallery of Installed Projects and Conceptual Applications

and here

Images In Tile | Gallery of Installed Projects and Conceptual Applications

Both exposed to full sun at least part of the day. Do they know something they aren't telling?

-James

 

[charles95405]

I called images in tile...and asked about sublimation in direct sunlight and durability. The person on the phone one the phone advised that sublimation will not last in direct sun...that you could put a protective uv filter on but have re apply every 4-5 months and even then would not be permanent. They use some sort of porcelain tile and a firing process for exterior.

Their website has this to say about exterior application

Q: Can these murals be installed outside?
A: Please contact IIT for consultation. 417-206-0252

So I think they play games with words...I have been doing dye sublimation since 1997 and have yet to find a process for outside...and this is no exception!

 

[mgparrish]

I called images in tile...and asked about sublimation in direct sunlight and durability. The person on the phone one the phone advised that sublimation will not last in direct sun...that you could put a protective uv filter on but have re apply every 4-5 months and even then would not be permanent. They use some sort of porcelain tile and a firing process for exterior.

Their website has this to say about exterior application

Q: Can these murals be installed outside?
A: Please contact IIT for consultation. 417-206-0252

So I think they play games with words...I have been doing dye sublimation since 1997 and have yet to find a process for outside...and this is no exception!

Here is the "fired" ceramic process that they mention, this stuff really works outdoors, but as you mention nothing subbed is any good outdoors.

These are decals made with special toner placed over the tiles then fired in a kiln. These tiles can be made from Home Depot tiles. Equipment (lasers or copiers) to make the decals are $$$ though.

I visited the first link below in person before as they are local to me.

Digital Ceramic Technologies - The leading Digital Ceramic Printer system

Ceramic Printing Equipment | Ceramic Printers | Custom Dishes, Glass, Tile, Murals

The decals can also be made by screen printing using special inks, but of course not a "one up" product if screen printed.