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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,
Just a general query regarding pricing mostly.
I was buying stock transfers from Proworld, Artbrands, etc., in half-dozen lots, which are great, apart from "Mom" instead of "Mum"! Recently I've been buying one at a time (from Ebay - much dearer than Proworld, etc.) and reproducing them on my printer. I've got a range of transfer paper here, cool-peel, hot-peel, etc. which I use.
As I'm not real good at crunching numbers, I'd appreciate hearing from others as to which method is the best, price-wise, ie buying in bulk or printing your own?
Also, while I'm at it, would love to hear from others of mistakes you've made (apart from those dreadful printing stuff-ups that every novice experiences - what a waste!). By this I mean design, presentation, pricing errors, and customers' likes and dislikes, etc. For example, cute, witty wording was OUT last year so I pressed a heap of solid pictures only (Noddy, Wiggles, The Cars, etc) only to find that cute, witty wording is IN this year!!! Solid pictures are out......aaahhhh.:confused:
Cheers, Sophie.
 

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I would like to advise you what you have described is illegal and you can get into trouble reproduceing copyrighted images. I would advise you to stop this practice immediately. ... JB
 

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I totally agree, you can't be doing that... Maybe you didn't know who know's.. but if you do get caught you'll be in some deep trouble.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Huh?
May I ask exactly how it's illegal?
I've asked a few people that I've bought transfers from for their OK, (to reprint) and they more or less replied they don't care what I do with them!
There is never any mention of copyright when I buy them. Do the vendors themselves have copyright/pay royalties to onsell trademark transfers (Ford, Billabong, Playboy, etc.) which are easily obtainable? I don't think so.....they onsell them by the thousands.
It's a bit like buying a pad of 20 party invitations when you've got 25 guests - you print off another 5 invitations, don't you? Is that too violating copyright?
And I think we all download funnies from Youtube and the like and send them on to friends. Is that abusing copyright as well? Along with re-selling used books?
Cartoon characters (or anything for that matter) can be machine-embroidered on garments and sold at markets. I have yet to witness the embroidery police trolling markets!
Still don't know where you guys are coming from, but would love to find out.
Cheers, Sophie
 

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May I ask exactly how it's illegal?
Copyright infringement.

I've asked a few people that I've bought transfers from for their OK, (to reprint) and they more or less replied they don't care what I do with them!
I find that hard to believe. Sounds more like miscommunication and they said you can do whatever you want with the actual transfers you bought from them.

Do the vendors themselves have copyright/pay royalties to onsell trademark transfers (Ford, Billabong, Playboy, etc.) which are easily obtainable?
Yes, they generally do.

It's a bit like buying a pad of 20 party invitations when you've got 25 guests - you print off another 5 invitations, don't you? Is that too violating copyright?
Yes, it is.

And I think we all download funnies from Youtube and the like and send them on to friends. Is that abusing copyright as well?
Some of the time, yes. It depends whether or not it was uploaded with the permission of the copyright owner.

Along with re-selling used books?
No. See: first sale doctrine.

Cartoon characters (or anything for that matter) can be machine-embroidered on garments and sold at markets.
Not legally.

I have yet to witness the embroidery police trolling markets!
Keep looking. It happens every now and again.

Still don't know where you guys are coming from, but would love to find out.
From a perspective of piracy and cheap knock-offs being bad for our entire industry. You obviously think everybody else is doing it. We're not. It's actually a minority of bad apples.
 

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I've asked a few people that I've bought transfers from for their OK, (to reprint) and they more or less replied they don't care what I do with them![/
The reason they don't care what you do with them is because they probably don't own those designs as well, come on it's EBAY.. There's ton's of people reproducing copyrighted images on EBAY and reselling them (BAD BUISNESS). Also try contacting proworld, artbrands, and all these other vendors that sell you these transfers and see what they tell you, i'll bet it won't be nothing nice!

There is never any mention of copyright when I buy them. Do the vendors themselves have copyright/pay royalties to onsell trademark transfers (Ford, Billabong, Playboy, etc.) which are easily obtainable? I don't think so.....they onsell them by the thousands.
Like i stated above, most of these vendors are crooked and some of the ones that are not.. probably have a license or pay royalties fees to sell these transfers. Which i still find hard to believe them telling you that they don't care what you do with them...


Still don't know where you guys are coming from, but would love to find out.
From a hard working and legal business.
 

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Sophie, we all are trying to help you from doing something illegal. If you think we are wrong, I suggest you investigate further to make sure. I will say, I got sued once for something not as blatent as what you are doing. I made a mistake and bought some pirated designs and then the seller got busted and gave up a list of he sold to. The company then came after all customers of the seller and we all had to pay. EBAY will cover themselves and throw everyone else to the wolves. This I know, because I have the experience. .... JB
 

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Discussion Starter #8
"First sale doctrine"? Please explain.
Come on you guys, I really haven't received a satisfactory answer. It's not as if I'm reproducing the Mona Lisa, for Heaven's Sake....I'm copying a couple of mass-produced transfers!!!!!!
By their millions. I'm cooking lamb chops for dinner...is the lamb gonna have an issue about that, I wonder?
I started out asking a simple question and ended up with all this crap?
Unbelievable.
 

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We are trying to give you advice, but to help you continue to break the lawis not helping you at all. You may think it is no big deal,but helping you to contiue breaking the law is truly not helping you. .... JB
 

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I started out asking a simple question and ended up with all this crap?
Unbelievable.
In answer to your question, yes what you're doing is probably cheaper. Mainly because it's cost-cutting through ignoring the law.


Asking about the costs of illegal activity on a legitimate business forum, and then complaining when you're called on it, is a little like being upset that Starbucks get upset when you sit down with your own Thermos of instant coffee and homemade bun.
 

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In answer to your question, yes what you're doing is probably cheaper. Mainly because it's cost-cutting through ignoring the law.


Asking about the costs of illegal activity on a legitimate business forum, and then complaining when you're called on it, is a little like being upset that Starbucks get upset when you sit down with your own Thermos of instant coffee and homemade bun.
Well stated my good friend. .... JB
 

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Discussion Starter #12
"Asking about the costs of illegal activity on a legitimate business forum, and then complaining when you're called on it, is a little like being upset that Starbucks get upset when you sit down with your own Thermos of instant coffee and homemade bun."
Hey you back-slapping guys...I was NOT asking about an "illegal activity" at all. Nor am I complaining.....at all.
Say.... a woman buys an iron-on transfer for her kid's party....she reprints it 10 times and irons it onto t-shirts. The local newspaper comes around and takes photos of the party. Who's going to get sued? The mother, the newspaper or the seller of the original transfer?
Get REAL.
If you can cite me a legal precedent, (of someone going to court for reprinting mass-produced transfers) then I'll happily concede (defeat, submission and Promise Never To To It Again).
And please don't try to tell me you've never, ever, reprinted mass-produced transfers yourselves.
Cheers, Sophie
 

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Sophie2006, my dear, I had a cousin-in-law (I won't claim her as blood) who would copy music cd's then sell the copies on ebay. She did not understand why the authorities knocked on her door. Trust me when I say that you do not want the troubles she now has! What you are doing is no different.
 

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You are breaching copyright if you reproduce any licensed product E.G Ford, Disney etc A lot of people do it but when you get caught you will find out the hard way .To use these images writen permission is needed from the copy right owner . I suggest you telephone the Ford Motor company, Disney ,Warner Bros Etc and see what they have to say about using there images. Don"t listen to Joe Bloggs who does it
 

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"Asking about the costs of illegal activity on a legitimate business forum, and then complaining when you're called on it, is a little like being upset that Starbucks get upset when you sit down with your own Thermos of instant coffee and homemade bun."
Hey you back-slapping guys...I was NOT asking about an "illegal activity" at all. Nor am I complaining.....at all.
Say.... a woman buys an iron-on transfer for her kid's party....she reprints it 10 times and irons it onto t-shirts. The local newspaper comes around and takes photos of the party. Who's going to get sued? The mother, the newspaper or the seller of the original transfer?
Get REAL.
If you can cite me a legal precedent, (of someone going to court for reprinting mass-produced transfers) then I'll happily concede (defeat, submission and Promise Never To To It Again).
And please don't try to tell me you've never, ever, reprinted mass-produced transfers yourselves.
Cheers, Sophie
You need to lighten up and realize people are trying to help you by advising your activities are illegal. I would think you would appreciate the help and not be rude to those trying to help . I think if I were you, I would chill out and listen to the people trying to help, but if not atleast we all know we tried to help you. I want to add that being ignorant of the law is not a excuse to break it or a defense when you get caught.I will say I have never reproduced copyrighted transfer for any reason. ... JB
 

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Hey you back-slapping guys...I was NOT asking about an "illegal activity" at all. Nor am I complaining.....at all.
But you are asking about an illegal activity when you stated:

"Recently I've been buying one at a time (from Ebay - much dearer than Proworld, etc.) and reproducing them on my printer.""

and

"...so I pressed a heap of solid pictures only (Noddy, Wiggles, The Cars, etc)..."

Say.... a woman buys an iron-on transfer for her kid's party....she reprints it 10 times and irons it onto t-shirts. The local newspaper comes around and takes photos of the party. Who's going to get sued? The mother, the newspaper or the seller of the original transfer?
Noone. BUT, if the woman were to buy one transfer and reprint it twenty times, then the woman will be sued for reprinting something that she does not own, since she only purchased the original one. It's like purchasing one license of Adobe Photoshop but putting it twenty computers at your office. You only paid for the one copy.

Get REAL.
If you can cite me a legal precedent, (of someone going to court for reprinting mass-produced transfers) then I'll happily concede (defeat, submission and Promise Never To To It Again).
And please don't try to tell me you've never, ever, reprinted mass-produced transfers yourselves.
Cheers, Sophie
Sophie, everyone around this forum is just trying to help and keep people from doing illegal activities. I agree that you should not be as rude and try researching these items yourself or contacting a lawyer if you are unsure whether or not you are doing is illegal. But Negligence of the Law Does NOT mean you can still break the law. You can't say that you didn't know drinking and driving was illegal, it won't fly.

Here are some links:

Dear Mark - T-Shirt Trekkie

U.S. Copyright Office

ps. - I have never mass produced t-shirts under copyright infringement
 

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"First sale doctrine"? Please explain.
It's not really pertinent to this discussion, it just answered the (rhetorical) question you asked above. If you really care you can easily look it up yourself.

It's not as if I'm reproducing the Mona Lisa, for Heaven's Sake
"It's not as if I'm stealing much, for Heaven's Sake."

I don't think we're really interested in the justifications. As business owners with intellectual property of our own, we're not particularly sympathetic to intellectual property theft.

Why would the Mona Lisa be more sacred than Grover? In fact, Da Vinci is long dead and the Mona Lisa out of copyright. Reproduce away.

Few of us are angels (I've infringed copyright before, I will probably do it again; few of us could honestly say otherwise), but we don't base a business on it.

As you can tell from the reaction here there's a line. Most of us consider ourselves on the right side of it, and what you're doing on the wrong side of it. This isn't just one individual pointing the finger, it's a consensus viewpoint arrived at by a group, forming a social standard.

Make of that what you will, but as a professional community of an industry you're participating in, we think what you're doing is a bad idea. And that is the answer to your question.
 

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so basically, if you were to come up with this new amazing idea, something that was "in" and stayed "in" the t-shirt market for say 2 years, and say that you made $10,000 off of your idea. . .you wouldn't want everyone on this forum (over thousands and thousands of members) taking your "great" idea and mass reproducing it themselves for their own benefit. I work very hard on my own artwork and don't believe people should be profitting off of the hard labor and love that I put into designing it. . .


. . .unless of course you were paying me to use it! ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thanks, guys, for all your informative input.
I wasn't cranky, just pretty gobsmacked how an innocent (or so I thought) question could turn into a debacle, for want of a better word! I try to do most things by the book, and when I was told by traders they didn't care what I did with a transfer once I'd purchased it, thought I had carte blanche...I even wrote to one seller asking if what they were selling was legal (trademarks). Now I understand why I never received a reply!
I'll try not to chastise myself tooooo much as I honestly thought it was common practice, and didn't set out to rattle anyone's cage.
Guess I've answered my own original question now, huh?
Cheers, Sophie
 

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Sophie, we all just wanted to help you from making a costly mistake. The few dollars you made, would have been eaten up and more from legal expenses and/or fines. If you want to make transfer check out royalty free clipart and have fun. I wish you the best of luck. .... JB
 
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