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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey all,

I have put together a design for a customer. I have it all set up as a single color half tone. The problem lies in the screen printer I am using to do the job is asking me to send over the file for the underbase. I am pretty new to halftones #1. #2 as it is Orange on a black shirt how do I set up this underbase without it showing through on the halftone areas. Design has been done in Photoshop.

Please anyone HELP!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The entire design has been done in Photoshop at 300DPI. The printer has the rip software to print the films. But my really is how do you choke back a halftone? Doing that on a spot color is easy but is quite different on the halftone part of the image.
 

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one method to chock back a grayscale is to use selection. load the channel as a selection and then contract. using 300ppi i would contract by 2pixels, 3 pixels will give you a bit more play on press if you are having trouble holding registration.
after contracting the selection, invert the selection and delete or fill with 100% white
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I did it exactly like that, the problem with that was the selection because of the gradient of color was too far out from the main image to work. So effectively choking back the layer on it does't really work.

I am not doing the printing. I have someone else do the actual printing.
 

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I believe if you are using layers then the selection would not include the gradient (unless it is a gradation to a transparent background).
The method i mentioned works well if you are separating to channels. loading a selection of the channel will load all the gradient information as well and contracting that selection will effect all gradients/tones.

i've never separated to layers, only to channels. hopefully someone can chime in that separates to layers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I just realized what the problem is really going to be and I am emailing my printer about it. What would have to be done to create a proper halftone back print is to have each dot that makes up the halftone image choked back instead of trying to backprint the entire image. the latter will end up with backprint lines showing up all over the image. That would have to be done in the rip software instead of through PS or Illustrator.
 

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What would have to be done to create a proper halftone back print is to have each dot that makes up the halftone image choked back instead of trying to backprint the entire image.
which is going to be one major pain in the arse. some designs just aren't made for black shirts. if you are talking about fine dots, just imagine the trouble the printer will have registering the print.

don't get me wrong the high quality screen printing shop can get it done but i'd charge you a fortune for it. if the machine is not dead on every print you are talking about losing a shirt every five prints.
 

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Hey all,

I have put together a design for a customer. I have it all set up as a single color half tone. The problem lies in the screen printer I am using to do the job is asking me to send over the file for the underbase. I am pretty new to halftones #1. #2 as it is Orange on a black shirt how do I set up this underbase without it showing through on the halftone areas. Design has been done in Photoshop.

Please anyone HELP!
Maybe I am not reading this right but if you are printing a 1 color and it's a halftone, why do you need an under-base?
 

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Nothing but misunderstanding and fear.

It's the easiest thing, the best method to use, and there should not be 10 posts of replies about something so simple.

Yes, you need to have the exact same halftones and just either:

A) choked back the base dots by a couple pixels at 1200 dpi.

or

B) trap out the color dots by a couple pixels at 1200 dpi.


No they don't have issues registering it, the dots get trapped great and it works awesome. It's not done in the rip, RIP's are all BS, its simple enough to make halftones in PS and then perform your choke/traps on them. The other way is adjust the curves on the base to have the halftones at same angle actually be in the same posittions but smaller... however the choke/trap works just as well.

It's funny how some of the simplest things are the best solutions to a given problem but nobody knows about it.

See attached... I think I wrote another post about this once before.. but I gotta make videos and just spill my guts about all the stuff I've learned over the years... trying to help in random posts on forums doesn't make a dent.

When you have your greyscale sep of the 1-color gradient...

Image> Size> Upsample to 1200 dpi Nearest Neighbor

Image> Mode> Bitmap / Black and White...

Choose halftone, 1200 dpi, set your angle and dot type (round, 22.5 etc.)... then convert back to greyscale....

You can then select just the white background pixels as a selection, perhaps with magic-wand, zero tolerance, non-contiguous.

Select> Modify> Expand - 1, 2, 3, 4 pixels or so... usually 2 is good enough at 1200 dpi with choking actual halftone dots.

Then with your selection now expanded (the white) -- you fill with WHITE and it cuts back all those dots. Trapping is done by selecting the black instead and expanding then filling with black.

It's not a pain, its really simple, and its easy to print through a 110, 160, etc, 45 LPI, is fine etc. The registration is a piece of cake because the dots are choked. You can fade any ink color into any shirt color with this technique I've done it thousands of times its easy and works great on press even gives you ROOM for mis-registration... not harder to register you've got it backwards.

It's not "high-end" printing to fade halftones or to fade halftones with each other (simulated process) or fade them into the shirt, trap and choke dots or interlock them etc.. The same detail is needed on a screen with lots of lines and thin text as with a halftone screen, its just quality screenmaking with some good tolerance on the dot-response curve and it comes out great. Manual or auto it works the same, you're choking the same halftone dot pattern (or trapping one) and it has forgiveness on-press... comes out much better and doesn't do the ghosting effect you see when people don't pay attention to the underbase dots choked for all colors and black inverted etc.... but I will have to cover this stuff more in-depth in new videos and screenprint training to really get the point across.

People will say everyone has their own way of doing things in screenprint, but unfortunately there really are situations in which there are best-practices that will work out correctly compared to other methods which have more or less room for error or are completely the wrong way. It's not rocket-science but YES it is color science and print engineering.

We are stacking molded-plastic-paint with stipple-techniques over twines of fabric. It only comes down to having the "ink" fall in the right positions relative to each other... trapping/choking dots is not really any harder to print on-press than the trapping/choking of text or other complex shapes.

It's all about having the average-blur effect of seeing the stippling or other details from a typical viewing distance. When the base is generated in rip from the same gradient, and no curves applied... THAT is when they have a hard time registering the exact-dot pattern... so you choke the base dots and perform the rip yourself which is better.. and its simply the right way to fade your ink into your shirt if the ink is not opaque enough to work on its own over the shirt color.

Photoshop and Corel have had the capability to manually make your own halftones for a very long time, going way back... it should be like one of the first things any screenprinter learns to do after just knowing how to pull spot-colors and make those films. Next should be simple halftone learning and how to make your own and control your seps and films better. It's really nothing more than a few steps in either program.
 

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Don't know why you need the underbase either...I do a lot of halftone jobs and have never needed to use one (knock on wood) This is one I'm printing this weekend and did the halftone in photoshop....using light grey ink on black and it comes out great.
It just depends only on the opacity of the ink and how it will look over the shirt color.

If the opacity is low (like a transparent ink or a semi-opaque plastisol etc) -- then over a darker shirt color it will not show up bright enough and blend into the shirt color subtracting rather than adding.

With a lot of light-colored inks like light-grey, you can print on a black shirt and get away without a base because the light-grey is technically mostly white ink base already just with a tint of black mixed in.

But you cannot print a 1-color halftone of water-based or semi-opaque, sometimes even the opaque plastisols are still a bit transparent over black and orange for example on a black shirt you'll need the underbase unless there is really enough white in the orange.. but usually if you want a pure ink you can't add too much white base into it with the pigments and therefore even most plastisols are only a bit opaque if printed over dark without a base...

Inks that show up over dark colors by themselves already have "white base" in the ink composition mixed with the pigment... so that's what you're seeing here. Lighter inks have a base element so you can get away without it, but sometimes even then for example on an automatic you might not print-flash-print, so you want a nice perfect layer of white base and then a layer of the ink color halftones, because you are essentially giving the ink the base-white-element it needs to be the right color over the shirt.

On manual you could really print-flash-print although you will get more dot-gain that way in the halftones. If you're going for a softer feel and the ink can slightly mix with the shirt-fabric color then 1 good hit can be great... or perhaps discharge the 1-color halftone ink so it knocks out the shirt color anyway.... but a lot of people will use a discharge base and then just a waterbased color.

There are a lot more times you need an underbase than when you don't, like the examples I posted above, 1-color Red, or maybe you have white in your design you save a screen if you get all the whites with the base and put the color on top and still get the fades into the shirt color.

Red ink usually does not show up at all over black it will look like a dark-red stain that you might not even see that well... you need white base for almost all the hues and it's only with really opaque lighter inks such as the greys, tints, etc.

You could do a 1-color ink like a yellow or red as discharge because its waterbased and it knocks out the shirt color, but still will probably not be as bright as with a white-discharge base (where its discharging the shirt and adding some white base that is more waterbased not thick plastisol white) then a normal waterbased yellow or red on top and then you'd want to choke the halftones as mentioned so you don't have more discharge/white base then in the color going over it.

It all depends on the 2 variables of the ink-opacity and the shirt-color, whether you need an underbase or not. Isn't this like one of the first things someone learns in screenprinting??
 

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Maybe I am not reading this right but if you are printing a 1 color and it's a halftone, why do you need an under-base?
As mentioned above... "orange on black shirts" will not be bright enough by itself unless you really pfp it but even then its not so much the right way to do it, and can't always be done automatic, so a base is needed depending on the ink opacity over the shirt color.

The orange by itself especially halftones (means a higher mesh screen, not as much ink going through whereas a solid could be low-mesh and maybe lay down a thick enough ink to be opaque enough) - will look possibly too dull like a brown on the black shirts, and with one hit on a high-mesh screen forget it will just look like a stain with a lot of black fabric-color showing through, you need the high-mesh but choked white base in this circumstance and any others where the ink opacity through the mesh over the shirt color etc is not going to attain the original brightness of the intended ink color.
 

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I'd print it with slightly reduced opaque orange and p/f/p. No underbase and about 43 lpi on a 160 mesh.
Sigh....

Sometimes you cannot do this on an automatic press as mentioned above twice, and we don't know if the "printer" is a manual or automatic printer. He is doing the seps/halftones and sending to the printer to make the films/screens and print. Maybe he is an automatic, maybe you should not be telling the printer how to print it whether you suggest a mesh count of print-flash-print.. .maybe it really should have 305 and one-hit and it will never show on the black shirt especially reduced.... maybe the printer is going to do index stochastic dots and requests 200 dpi.

The correct way to supply a 1-color halftone for printing over a black shirt is always to provide an underbase choked if they want to use it.
The printer can decide what mesh and other things but the ability to use a base and color over black is ALWAYS needed.


The original post was asking specifically about a single-color-halftone UNDERBASE. I don't think he wants to know how a manual screenprinter would print it himself without an underbase. He wants to know how to provide his printer with the right underbase and halftones to print orange over black shirts. What is so hard about answering the question accordingly with good information.
 

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Sigh....

Sometimes you cannot do this on an automatic press as mentioned above twice, and we don't know if the "printer" is a manual or automatic printer. He is doing the seps/halftones and sending to the printer to make the films/screens and print. Maybe he is an automatic, maybe you should not be telling the printer how to print it whether you suggest a mesh count of print-flash-print.. .maybe it really should have 305 and one-hit and it will never show on the black shirt especially reduced.... maybe the printer is going to do index stochastic dots and requests 200 dpi.

The correct way to supply a 1-color halftone for printing over a black shirt is always to provide an underbase choked if they want to use it.
The printer can decide what mesh and other things but the ability to use a base and color over black is ALWAYS needed.


The original post was asking specifically about a single-color-halftone UNDERBASE. I don't think he wants to know how a manual screenprinter would print it himself without an underbase. He wants to know how to provide his printer with the right underbase and halftones to print orange over black shirts. What is so hard about answering the question accordingly with good information.
Hey Jeff, no worries!
I know there are a number of ways to print this as well as a number of printers suggesting their preferred method
I appreciate your knowledge and input and respect your answers
Your right about the question too.
We weren't answering, just asking more questions.
Sorry to send this thread off in another direction
 

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Sigh....

What is so hard about answering the question accordingly with good information.
I was just adding to the answers by saying how I'd do it. You don't always need an underbase and opaque inks are a good way to print halftones without one..

Thanks for putting me back in my place. From now on I'll let you answer all the forum questions since it's "so hard" for me. Your "Sigh...." indicates that my ignorance is making you weary. I assure you that was not my intention.
 

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fullspectrumseps must be a gas in real life. the room must shrink when he walks in the room with his huge ego.

way to make friends.
Yeah...Someday I may know all the answers to all the questions, but until then I welcome anybody's input on any question that I post. Even if it doesn't help, I'll still be grateful that you made the effort, and it may provide me with some insight for a future issue. That's what a forum is for.

I assure each of you that none of my forum responses will ever begin with "Sigh...."
 

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fullspectrumseps must be a gas in real life. the room must shrink when he walks in the room with his huge ego.

way to make friends.
Jeff is a character yes. But given all the lies and BS floating around this industry I do not blame him for being him and for shooting straight.

He is not a gas, he is the real deal on steroids Mik, no lies, no BS and dead on color/halftone understanding that makes what you might think is impossible possible.

He liberated me from all the PS Sim Process BS using Corel and many others that now slam Sim Process like it was childs play.

Maybe you are the EGO problem Miky!
 
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