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Discussion Starter #1
Ok, feel free to stop me if you have a good reason why this is a dumb idea, but here goes..... The benefits of "rifling" have long been observed by gun experts; creating rotational grooves on the inside of the rifle barrel, will cause the projectile to spin as it travels the length of the barrel, ultimately exiting the weapon in full spin. When firing a weapon the primary benefit is improved accuracy, as the spinning motion applies a gyroscopic force to the projectile, causing it to fly straighter and more true. However, what about the obvious effect, which has little practical use for the shooter? I am talking, of course, about what the bullet is doing INSIDE the barrel - SPINNING! First, if you are curious, take a look at this primer on barrel rifling, from Wikipedia:

Rifling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ok, now that you have a scientific understanding of what is happening, how can we apply this to the DTG printing industry? Well, once again, don't stone me if you think this is a stupid idea, but check it out - could we "rifle" the insides of each of the ink delivery lines that carry ink to the print head, causing the ink to "swirl" in the lines, on its way to the head? It seems to me that INSIDE the ink lines is the single hardest place to control the white ink settling..... Well, what if we used this physical process to "stir" the ink while it travels through the lines? Does anybody have any good reasons why this would NOT work (besides "difficulty to manufacture" or "added machine cost", which are no excuses to not pursue anything that might make these machines better)?

Maybe there are machine out there that already use this process? I haven't heard of any, but I know Brother has some sort of "specialized" ink lines, that are fairly expensive if you want to buy some replacements..... I don't know what makes the Brother lines special, other than the fact that they (at one time, anyways) were constructed with an "inner" piece and an "outer" piece - not sure why this made a difference, but it definitely got me thinking! I did a quick search, and I didn't find much along the lines of "flexible, rifled tubing", but there is a big world out there..... SOMEONE has to be able to make them! haha





 

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justin,

it makes sense..i think some expermintation would have to be done..

also a single object like a bullet doesn't fill the whole chamber whilst traveling out... ink would however fill this whole cavity, But it is continually moving per say...so i think this is a brilliant idea as long as the ink would react like a bullet while traveling to the print head...

also these lines could be manufactured for pennies if its proven to work...;) we need to see some pics of these brother lines..you mention:)
 

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It sounds like a good idea but i dont thing that the ink has the proper velocity since the ink delivery system is passive. I would test it if i could find the tubes...
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Problem is, I don't hear many WIMS users talking about how incredible it is (whereas, I DO hear a lot of Printsrite users talking about how incredible the bagged system is) - perhaps the concept of the WIMS is valid, but the execution is poor? I don't know, since I haven't actually used one. However, I remember Belquette talking about a KISS system, for quite some time (don't think it ever made it to market), which seemed to have the same premise behind the WIMS system.
 

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Problem is, I don't hear many WIMS users talking about how incredible it is (whereas, I DO hear a lot of Printsrite users talking about how incredible the bagged system is) - perhaps the concept of the WIMS is valid, but the execution is poor? I don't know, since I haven't actually used one. However, I remember Belquette talking about a KISS system, for quite some time (don't think it ever made it to market), which seemed to have the same premise behind the WIMS system.
I was going to look into this bag system..i dont think its a big deal, we can prolly bag our own..

just gotta figure out the process..lol looks to just be vaccuum sealed bags..which that would be simple if thats the case..:p what else can it be? just the ink with the air removed..

they call it degassed...whats the gas oxygen?:D
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Its tough to tell........ The guys that do it are veeeery tight lipped about what, specifically, they do to the ink to make it "better". This whole industry is like that, actually - the less the general public knows or understands, the easier it is to pull the wool over their eyes! haha I remember a few companies, not too long ago, making all sorts of bold claims about "secret" things that THEY did differently to their machines, ink, etc, that nobody else did, that made their particular systems BETTER..... However, when they can't explain what they do, or why they do it, it causes me to raise an eyebrow and wonder if we're not all being fed the "Emperor's New Clothes" routine....

Having said that, I also don't rule out the need to keep certain information proprietary, to protect against a prying competition.... It is a precarious balance; do you cater to an ever-more-educated public, by meeting their demands for tangible information and explanations, while accepting the risk that the competition might try and copy you? Or, do you cater to your needs, as a business, to protect your proprietary information from the competition, and risk losing potential customers who will never just "take your word for it" that your machine / ink / product is actually better? Its tough to find a happy balance! You know me.... I am all about sharing the information, publicly, and letting the best companies set themselves apart in a very tangible way. If a competitor copies something you are doing (barring copyright or patent infringement)............

... Well, if that one thing was the only thing that set you a part from the competition, then tough break! However, in my experience, the companies that are usually innovating the industry are the ones who excel in multiple areas, such as superior customer service, faster response times, more thoughtful product development, honest marketing, fair evaluations of the competition, etc..... The guys who just "make it by" by copying other peoples' innovations will never be able to stay ahead of the curve, in the long run, so I just trust that the natural process will show the winners and losers for who they are. Therefore, in my warped little mind, it makes much more sense for the companies to be more open about their products and processes, if indeed they do make the quality of the print better, improve the reliability of the machine, or otherwise offer some tangible benefit over other options.

I doubt that will prompt anybody to suddenly tell us all about the process that makes the ink better (aside from the fact that it is delivered in closed bags), but hey, its how I feel. :)
 

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I recently had a urological incident and after that i came out of surgery with several bags and little tubes.... i felt like a dtg.... lol
These bags are flat, their job is to fill all the way up, i can buy some and do some tests with cleaning solution when my ciss will arrive.
Something similar can be done if we add to the ciss main bottles a liquid that does not mix with the ink and it is lighter than the ink, in order to create a film to stop the air from contacting the inks and form problems.
 

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I recently had a urological incident and after that i came out of surgery with several bags and little tubes.... i felt like a dtg.... lol
These bags are flat, their job is to fill all the way up, i can buy some and do some tests with cleaning solution when my ciss will arrive.
Something similar can be done if we add to the ciss main bottles a liquid that does not mix with the ink and it is lighter than the ink, in order to create a film to stop the air from contacting the inks and form problems.
CMOS.
that does not sound fun...:(

hope all is well with that...test em out with the ink..lol:D
 

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they call it degassed...whats the gas oxygen?:D
yes it is o2 and n2 and a few others. i dont know if you meant that as joke , but it started to make think about the process of degassing.
one of the main reasons dtg inks will clog is the exposure of the ink to air. i think simply pumping the ink into closed bags wont do the trick, because there is already gas dissolved in the ink. so you will have to degass the ink first and fill the degassed ink into a bag. in order to keep the ink free from any gas after the degasification, you will have to pump out the air from the bag with a vacuum pump.
i have found a company Ink Debubbling, Ink Deaeration selling special inkjet ink degasser units.

...to be continued....
 

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Justin, I like the idea very much so I patented it (just kidding). But seriously, it seems to very logical at first glance. I remember aftermarket automotive fuel delivery systems that claimed better vaporization of fuel using a similar rifling technique.
 

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There are many inserts for pipes that encourage mixing, generally bits of plastic, but the fluid velocity is practically zero, no mixing is going to occur. The liquid will be in the laminar flow region until the head. IMHO
 

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Ok, now that you have a scientific understanding of what is happening, how can we apply this to the DTG printing industry? Well, once again, don't stone me if you think this is a stupid idea, but check it out - could we "rifle" the insides of each of the ink delivery lines that carry ink to the print head, causing the ink to "swirl" in the lines, on its way to the head? It seems to me that INSIDE the ink lines is the single hardest place to control the white ink settling..... Well, what if we used this physical process to "stir" the ink while it travels through the lines? Does anybody have any good reasons why this would NOT work (besides "difficulty to manufacture" or "added machine cost", which are no excuses to not pursue anything that might make these machines better)?
The only problem I see is that unless you have a system where the ink is continuously circulated (even when off) your gonna' have white ink separation, once the heavier TO2 separates it will fill the rifling in the tube and possibly not be able to be remixed in the lines, if that's the case then the rifling will only last a few days and then be filled with the heaver separated pigment making the tube smooth again (well kinda' sorta') and possibly moving down the tube in clumps that could cause a clog.

That said in something like the WIMS I could see the added benefit in a little extra ink movement while being circulated because it's a pressurized ink delivery system which I think would be key in the lines adding any benefit.

JMHO
 

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when I was in the AF, the put us in a chamber that quickly depressurized simulating a cabin breach and we were all breathing supplied air. then they slowly brought us back to sea level pressures and we alll took our masks off. It smelled like everyone in there s#$t themselves. It is the first thing that comes to mind when I hear the word "degassed" as we were all degassed. :)

I would put my money on that degassed ink is simply ink that was stirred in a container (with air in it, but air at much lower than atmospheric pressure by way of a vacuum) and a petcock in the bottom is opened to fill up an IV type bag... which if entirely under water except for the nipple prior to filling would be free of air.
 

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I would put my money on that degassed ink is simply ink that was stirred in a container (with air in it, but air at much lower than atmospheric pressure by way of a vacuum) and a petcock in the bottom is opened to fill up an IV type bag... which if entirely under water except for the nipple prior to filling would be free of air.
The degassing process is much more that this. There are tiny air bubbles that are incorporated into the ink. The process of degassing removes these as well.
 

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I was going to look into this bag system..i dont think its a big deal, we can prolly bag our own..

just gotta figure out the process..lol looks to just be vaccuum sealed bags..which that would be simple if thats the case..:p what else can it be? just the ink with the air removed..

they call it degassed...whats the gas oxygen?:D
Lot of advantages to bagged or closed system. Minimizes waste u can use all the bag. Reduces air contact so less evaporation which means less gumming up. But it is sold at a premium price. About 50% more expensive. Sent u pm.
 
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HaHa... I'm just curious, what was that supposed to do for the beer?
 

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I bet it's easier to keep the white mixed, too. Couple of kneads and flip it over at the beginning of the day. My last guess is as above, but in an enclosed system. I figured it out I think while spraying a seeping fire hose today.

semi-permeable tubing run inside a container that is under vacuum... that'd be the easiest way. It'd have an ink inlet, a vacuum out, and a degassed ink out. might even be able to be made as simple out of pvc vacuum chamber made of plumbing from home depot with teflon tubing (which is a semipermeable membranes that allows o2 and co2 passage through the walls of the tubing but not liquid). Basically like a dialysis machine, but with smaller "holes" in the membrane- hence choosing teflon.

They make teflon in very tiny tubes for medical purposes, like iv catheters. I bet you could glass a bundle of them together just at the ends then saw the ends off and you'd have a ... lemme draw it.

this is the DIG DTG forum after all. ;)
 

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