question regarding mesh and squeege for plastisol inks

3536 Views 20 Replies 7 Participants Last post by BroJames, Sep 17, 2011

orion001

Discussion Starter · Jul 17, 2010

hello everyone. i am planning on starting a silkscreen printing business and i am planning on using plastisol inks. i was wondering what is a good durometer squeege to use for a beginner? is a triple durometer 70/90/70 good for all around jobs? also i am thinking of what different mesh count should i buy first?
i am planning on buying these sizes of mesh
4 80 mesh
6 110 mesh
6 156mesh
8 200mesh
6 230mesh

i am planning on making at least 30 screens since i am just starting out. will these mesh count be good for a beginner or should i change some to highe mesh counts?
tnx alot to anyone wholl give me an input.

every help will really be appreciated.

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Smokestack

· #2 · Jul 17, 2010

Don't forget 255 and 305 mesh. For a manual shop you don't need triple durometer squeeges..If you have an automatic press.. definitely triple duroeter.... go singles... I would get a handful of sixty's and a handfull of 70's. Depending on the design, garment, and ink colors, that should dictate which squeeges to use.. It's probably going to have to be a feel thing for you. Good luck : )

Smokestack

· #3 · Jul 17, 2010

Personally, unless you plan on using specialty inks like hi density or glitter or whatever, I would forget about the 80 mesh screens. There's no need

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orion001

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jul 17, 2010

Smokestack said:
Personally, unless you plan on using specialty inks like hi density or glitter or whatever, I would forget about the 80 mesh screens. There's no need

oh..ok sir. i thought that i need a triple durometer squeegee to print plastisols. so basically i should buy at least 6 pcs of 60 and 70 durometer squeeges first? also i am planning on doing foil printing will i be able to use foil adhesive on a 110 mesh? and if am going to use a 255 and 305 mesh can you give me an advice on what i can remove form the mesh lists that i posted? tnx alot sir.

at least now i have an idea on what to buy.

nation03

· #5 · Jul 17, 2010

Starting out I think 110 through 230 is fine. I print manually right now also and the higher the mesh count the harder it is to clear the screen. I just did a 6 color job with all 230 mesh and it was a little rough clearing the screens so I can only imagine how much harder it would be for a 305. I'd say the most versatile mesh is 156 because you can print discharge through it, it clears easily and you get a good deposit. If you want high detail though the 230's will definitely help you achieve it. I kinda wanted to try out the triple duro squeegees because I prefer printing with a stiffer blade. Those will definitely come in handy on the higher mesh counts so I wouldn't rule them out. I use mainly 70 and 80 though. I don't see much of a use for the 60 duros.

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orion001

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jul 18, 2010

nation03 said:
Starting out I think 110 through 230 is fine. I print manually right now also and the higher the mesh count the harder it is to clear the screen. I just did a 6 color job with all 230 mesh and it was a little rough clearing the screens so I can only imagine how much harder it would be for a 305. I'd say the most versatile mesh is 156 because you can print discharge through it, it clears easily and you get a good deposit. If you want high detail though the 230's will definitely help you achieve it. I kinda wanted to try out the triple duro squeegees because I prefer printing with a stiffer blade. Those will definitely come in handy on the higher mesh counts so I wouldn't rule them out. I use mainly 70 and 80 though. I don't see much of a use for the 60 duros.

tnx alot. sir. maybe ill just stick with my mesh list in my fisrtpost and aftr i get used to screenprinting then ill buy some higher mesh counts. tnx again.

BroJames

· #7 · Jul 18, 2010 (Edited)

If the mesh counts are only for plastisols, go for 156 as underbase. 180 for regular spot color prints where you want more opacity. 200 or 230 if you want more details or halftone images. Simplify your mesh sizes.

Unless you want a thick print or are using some special effect inks that require lower mesh counts, do not use the 80-110 mesh.

A 70 durometer squeegee is fine but if you will be purchasing new squeegees go for a 70-90-70 triple durometer squeegee.

Based on the inks I've used so far, the lower priced plasitsol inks (in the P250-450 price range in the Philippines) will pass through 230 mesh screens only with extra pressure. And if you manage to push the ink through evenly, which I am sure most people can at least in the first few prints, you may not get the opacity you want. Less opacity = more print strokes.

Depending on your printing style, even better quality inks costing 2-3X more is no guarantee that you will want the extra pressure to get them through 256 mesh screens. Many people will settle for the cheaper plastisol inks so are you willing to spend 2-3x more for your inks?

Go with the 156-180-200 mesh screens first(or 156-200-230 if you are more daring) and move on from there. But if you do lots of details and are a perfectionist, chances are, you will later add the 256-305 mesh. Still, start with the 156-180-200(or 156-200-230) mesh combination because even if you move to finer mesh later, you can still used these screens and with no problems.

For 30 screens you can maybe try something like:

4 156
8 180 or 200
8 200 or 230

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tpitman

· #8 · Jul 18, 2010

I'd whittle it down to the 6 156's and the 6 230's. I notice you mentioned "making" the screens. A word of advice: buy aluminum static frames already stretched by a professional and take care of them. They're relatively cheap and will almost certainly give you better results than doing it yourself, if in fact that's what you had planned.

BroJames

· #9 · Jul 18, 2010 (Edited)

Tom, most people in the Philippines make their own wood frames with simple lap joints. Cost lots cheaper (Around P150-180 versus P1100-1200 for aluminum frames). Stretching service here cost P150 which for me is acceptable but I am not sure if they will stretch wood frames.

Most people also use the line table system and an aluminum frame can be heavy. I have 10 20x26" aluminum screens professionally stretched and I prefer the DIY wood frames more due to its lighter weight and cost.

But there is no argument on the advantages of aluminum screens. Maybe before Christmas, I'll try slightly larger frames that are welded with the ends open to accept wood inserts for the vertical alignment eyescrews. I hate the vertical alignment screws of my current aluminum frames

But for my smaller frames, I still plan to DIY it with wood.

tpitman

· #10 · Jul 18, 2010

I hadn't noticed that the poster was located out of the US. I'm aware that resources overseas are sometimes either more expensive, or non-existent for folks printing elsewhere based on the comments I often see on these boards. Speaking for people in the US who are just getting started, though, it's almost counter-productive to make frames and stretch screens by hand as inexpensive as ready-mades are for us here.

orion001

Discussion Starter · #11 · Jul 18, 2010

tpitman said:
I'd whittle it down to the 6 156's and the 6 230's. I notice you mentioned "making" the screens. A word of advice: buy aluminum static frames already stretched by a professional and take care of them. They're relatively cheap and will almost certainly give you better results than doing it yourself, if in fact that's what you had planned.

sir aluminum screens costs alot here in our country. i am form the Philippines and most of the screen printers here use wood because of the cost.

orion001

Discussion Starter · #12 · Jul 18, 2010

tpitman said:
I hadn't noticed that the poster was located out of the US. I'm aware that resources overseas are sometimes either more expensive, or non-existent for folks printing elsewhere based on the comments I often see on these boards. Speaking for people in the US who are just getting started, though, it's almost counter-productive to make frames and stretch screens by hand as inexpensive as ready-mades are for us here.

yes sir aluminum frames here costs alot and for me who is just starting cannot afford it at the moment. but maybe in time ill swithc to aluminum frames. and also like bro james said i will also be using a line table instead of a rotary because of the cost. tnx for your help sir.

also wouldnt i need a 110 mesh? for like special effects printing like puff or suede? or will i be able to do this on a 156mesh?

ZenPrinter

· #13 · Jul 18, 2010

orion001 said:
yes sir aluminum frames here costs alot and for me who is just starting cannot afford it at the moment. but maybe in time ill swithc to aluminum frames. and also like bro james said i will also be using a line table instead of a rotary because of the cost. tnx for your help sir. also wouldnt i need a 110 mesh? for like special effects printing like puff or suede? or will i be able to do this on a 156mesh?

If you use elongated mesh you won't have to press as hard, it covers better and uses less ink. It's a good idea to have a gallon of viscosity reducer around to slightly thin the ink if needed. Helps bridge the gaps on the shirt and makes for a smoother print with less effort. It only takes a little bit. Do not use on transparent inks! Do not use on 50/50 t-shirts till you have had some experience with it as they will sublimate.

orion001

Discussion Starter · #14 · Jul 18, 2010

ZenPrinter said:
If you use elongated mesh you won't have to press as hard, it covers better and uses less ink. It's a good idea to have a gallon of viscosity reducer around to slightly thin the ink if needed. Helps bridge the gaps on the shirt and makes for a smoother print with less effort. It only takes a little bit. Do not use on transparent inks! Do not use on 50/50 t-shirts till you have had some experience with it as they will sublimate.

sir may i know what is an elongated mesh?

ZenPrinter

· #15 · Jul 19, 2010 (Edited)

orion001 said:
sir may i know what is an elongated mesh?

Sure! Here in the U.S. Murakami imports the mesh from JAPAN. The original manufacturer is NITTOKU MILLS. Over here it is sometimes refered to as "smartmesh"

Do the reading is all you have to do. good luck

I do almost everything with 230's, some 160's but I am automated. You might wish to use triple duro squeegy 70/90/70 as an 80 works best for manual but the triple will let you not work so hard. 70's are too soft for prime printing. Then again ink control via bases and additives separates the men from the boys. Takes practice.

BroJames

· #16 · Jul 19, 2010

I think a 100-120 murakami mesh is about 4-5 times more expensive than most polyester mesh many printers here consider as good enough for commercial printing. For higher mesh counts murakami cost just about double.

I am not sure if any supplier is selling the smartmesh here. Does the smartmesh require a lower lpi? I am also not sure why larger printers here seem to prefer the even more expensive SEFAR mesh to murakami.

tpitman said:
I hadn't noticed that the poster was located out of the US. I'm aware that resources overseas are sometimes either more expensive, or non-existent for folks printing elsewhere based on the comments I often see on these boards. Speaking for people in the US who are just getting started, though, it's almost counter-productive to make frames and stretch screens by hand as inexpensive as ready-mades are for us here.

Tom, there are many printers here who are updated as to the new developments overseas and have the latest equipment from exposure units to automated rotaries to conveyor dryers. Most people in this forum though (from the Philippines), use what is know as the line table system and DIY wooden frames are a standard.

Some basic equipment here are quite expensive though stiffling the local screen printing industry. A 15x15BBC flashcure that can be imported and shipped to the Philippines for P18,000 retails for P45,000 and I am sure the premium is not due to any standard warranties extended in the US. On the contrary, warranties are usually non existent here.

Labor in the US is expensive and I can relate to what you describe as being counterproductive over there. Here, labor is much cheaper and most printers can find time to make frames themselves.

Orion001, yes, most effects that require high ink deposits are better done with 110 mesh. However, I think you should leave that for later. usually, they also require printing over the same layer several times so more room for errors. Do that later as you gain more experience.

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ZenPrinter

· #17 · Jul 19, 2010

BroJames said:
I think a 100-120 murakami mesh is about 4-5 times more expensive than most polyester mesh many printers here consider as good enough for commercial printing. For higher mesh counts murakami cost just about double.

I am not sure if any supplier is selling the smartmesh here. Does the smartmesh require a lower lpi? I am also not sure why larger printers here seem to prefer the even more expensive SEFAR mesh to murakami.

Tom, there are many printers here who are updated as to the new developments overseas and have the latest equipment from exposure units to automated rotaries to conveyor dryers. Most people in this forum though (from the Philippines), use what is know as the line table system and DIY wooden frames are a standard.

Some basic equipment here are quite expensive though stiffling the local screen printing industry. A 15x15BBC flashcure that can be imported and shipped to the Philippines for P18,000 retails for P45,000 and I am sure the premium is not due to any standard warranties extended in the US. On the contrary, warranties are usually non existent here.

Labor in the US is expensive and I can relate to what you describe as being counterproductive over there. Here, labor is much cheaper and most printers can find time to make frames themselves.

Orion001, yes, most effects that require high ink deposits are better done with 110 mesh. However, I think you should leave that for later. usually, they also require printing over the same layer several times so more room for errors. Do that later as you gain more experience.

Many good points. I use Sefar screens as well.

BroJames

· #18 · Jul 19, 2010

ZenPrinter said:
Many good points. I use Sefar screens as well.

In your opinion, why are they more expensive? I am sure there are many technical data on why it is more expensive but as a printer, or in words that a normal person can better understand, in what way will SEFAR benefit the printer? Will the print quality improve significantly?

More specifically, since I am not using a retensionable frame my screen is bound to lose significant tension in a few months or years depending on use. When that time comes, my only option is to replace the mesh whether it is a smartmesh or a SEFAR as this is the only way I can have the mesh retensioned. So what is it with SEFAR that I must consider?

I am not trying to be philosophical about this but I do really want to hear your views to help me decide in the future.

Thanks

BroJames

· #19 · Jul 19, 2010 (Edited)

Smokestack said:
Don't forget 255 and 305 mesh. For a manual shop you don't need triple durometer squeeges..If you have an automatic press.. definitely triple duroeter.... go singles... I would get a handful of sixty's and a handfull of 70's. Depending on the design, garment, and ink colors, that should dictate which squeeges to use.. It's probably going to have to be a feel thing for you. Good luck : )

I just notice your post now

I often hear that the 70-90-70 triple durometer squeegee is better and this comes from people using manual press. I also often read that triple is better.

Not too long ago, when I was already using plastisol, someone who was introduced to me as a very good printer adviced me to use a 70 durometer squeegee so I bought a roll of it. He said the same thing as you did, that for manual press, use a 70 durometer squeegee but I never asked him why. So maybe now is the time for me to know why. Would you happen to know why a straight 60 or 70 durometer is better for manual press?

Alan Buffington

· #20 · Sep 16, 2011 (Edited)

Hello everyone,

I just ran across this post in an attempt to clarify all things regarding Murakami as I am the tech rep in the states. While there are many issues for our friends in the Phillipines,(hello Angel), the basic premise of quality printing begins with the screen.

Pre-stretched frames from Murakami are the least expensive screen investment. There is a saying, "you can pay me now or pay me later, but either way you pay". So while DIY frames may have cost advantages in the beginning they limit your print capabilities and cost you in longer registration, poor print quality compared to a stretch and glue at 22 newtons. You simply cannot print high end sim process or index with wooden frames unable to hold good tensions. Print quality will suffer at the edges, in dot gain, in the softness of the print. While I too have made most everything for my shop at one time or another it pays to get a good screen up front. Murakami has the best retained tension of any mesh, so on static stretch and glue you get many more impressions and more importantly your print quality remains the best it can be for the life of the screen.

Alan Buffington
Murakami Screen USA

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