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Permaboss Mini Motif Maker-Roland EGX?

12K views 21 replies 9 participants last post by  miamirhinestone 
Hey there,
I was sold on the Permaboss Mini Motif Maker machine (same as Motif Maker that drills template boards but smaller and about $9000 after all was said and done to the U.S.)

I also got the hard sell and the scare tactics from the sales guy who also happens to be the president of the company. With this entry-level machine I'm still a small fish in a big pond but did not want to go with the cheapest option (Roland or similar)... I thought I remember being told this machine was manufactured in Europe... maybe my memory is bad on that part. (Anyway for the record it's made in China but IS well-constructed).

Anyway... I took delivery of one of the first 10 or so machines ever made, supposedly, in July 2007. From the start my machine did not work correctly, it did not drill accurate, precise holes. I worked with tech support (who is very good by the way) for 6 months but we could not get the problem solved. This is a big problem by the way... means it takes about 5 times as long to MAKE a template and about 5 times as long to USE the template when you're dealing with rough holes that aren't round.

During this entire process over many months with practically weekly communication with support, never once could I get attention of the president who originally sold me my machine. I tried. I let him know I received a machine I couldn't use in business. Support should have kept him up to date as well. He was a great salesperson but had no followup when there was a problem (which you could argue is what makes a great salesperson - they can separate pre-sales and post-sales).

After 6 months and DOZENS of hours I finally hired an expert to come in and take a look (why didn't I think of this before?). It took him less than 30 seconds to resolve my problem (bit spinning backwards, motor had been reverse wired from the factory) and it took me about half an hour to learn how to change the motor direction and now it works nicely.

I still have problems getting holes drilled of consistent DEPTH - they need to be a precise, consistent depth or else not all the stones will set correctly (I'm talking about fractions of a millimeter here, very precise) - and this is something we're still sorting through. I think perhaps the boards they are sending me are not of consistent thickness, also they warped pretty badly so I am waiting on more to come in. Also I have found another locally-available material that works quite well that is cheaper and readily available.

Anyway, I am finally getting happy with the machine but have had a disappointing overall experience with Permaboss. I realize I'm buying industrial equipment here, not a lobster dinner but I feel I deserve some personal attention from someone who has a personal stake in the game.

Can you imagine how it felt to purchase a machine that should have allowed me to expand my business into new realms and have to miss the entire 2008 holiday season and delay 6 months because of a manufacturing defect? If the expert I hired had not found the problem some serious action would have then been taken - getting them to come out here and diagnose or exchange the machine at no cost. It's a little tougher being that I'm in the US and they are in Canada regarding legal remedies but fortunately the wife of an acquaintance of mine in Toronto is an attorney who was ready to help me out if I needed it.

Anyway, this is MY personal experience and should not be construed as the standard for Permaboss. Supposedly their high-end equipment (the $80-$125k machines) are industry leaders and I hope to be in the position to buy one someday (at which time you know I will be checking out ALL the competition). But here are the problems or potential problems I encountered:
- I bought v1.0 of a new machine; this like anything (cars included) always carries risk;
- buying directly from Canada complicates things a little (currency conversion, customs, though they did a good job of helping eliminate customs by shipping from NY), decreased legal remedy options
- they also have their own version of proprietary rhinestone software (RhinestoneWorx) so they don't have to license another and can make more profit but it's in the early stages and a little buggy and is has been missing some needed features... I have the feeling that I have been a big contributor in helping them improve the software and fix bugs
- I'm not sure the machine is useful for anything else other than making rhienestone templates with their software. Perhaps it's a standard CNC machine and can be put to other uses if I sell it to someone else as a CNC machine

I hope others have had better experiences with them. I was definitely time-pressured into the purchase but I accept 100% responsibility for pulling the trigger and buying the machine. Just do your homework first to make sure that you are going with the best option for your needs.

To sum it up, a simple phone call or e-mail once a month from Rob would have probably put me at ease and known I was an appreciated customer and caused me to write a completely different review here. I guess I just run my company differently.
 
Those patterns look great. How well do they turn out once drilled? Would love to see some close-up photos, and I can share some made by the MMM.

Regarding the two computers for the Permaboss Mini Motif Maker, well I'm not sure you understood what they were saying exactly. One computer is any PC that you design the pattern on using the software. Then the software creates a tiny file (basically a text file with machine coordinates) that you put in a USB thumbdrive and plug into the computer on the rhinestone machine. But that is not a PC, it is part of the machine, it's the "brains" that take the incoming file and tell the machine how to operate the X, Y, and Z axis. So don't think of it as "another computer" that you'd have to buy, basically it is part of the machine and you don't buy it separately. The nice thing about this approach is I don't have to have a PC in the same room as the machine, don't have to even have one turned on... I can load the files onto the USB key and run them anytime I want.

I just discovered the DAS machine a few nights ago and wanted to ask someone about that. Since different sized rhinestones require different hold DEPTHS (not just widths), are you able to buy vinyl in exactly the correct depths needed for the different sized stones? There are at least 6 different sizes stones and they would all need slightly different depths or else they won't settle in the template correctly. Are you able to overcome this? Is this what you mean when you say "You are only limited in size by the size of the vinyl you use"?

Lastly, assuming you are in the US, when all was said and done, what did the DAS machine end up costing you complete w/ software?
 
Hi,
I posted in January about my Permaboss Mini Motif Maker. At that time I was finally getting good results with the machine and it's only gotten better. When making 1-color/element rhinestone patterns, it's extremely quick and easy. I can do a complete 600-stone transfer in about 90 seconds. 2 color/element patterns take maybe a couple minutes longer.

Now that the machine's fully working (with that easy fix of making the bit spin the correct direction!), and I have a new batch of very flat oilboards, it's working like a charm. I can run it at full speed and it only takes a couple minutes to drill a new board (you only have to do this once per design). I found a great method to make the holes consistent depth.
 
Wanted to post an update here, several months later. I ended up abandoning the Mini Motif Maker. It was just too hard to make multi-colored designs and get them to align perfectly. It wasn't impossible, but took a lot of time. I dreaded a tiny 50-shirt project when it had multiple elements. NOTE: THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM WITH THE MMM ITSELF, it is a problem inherent to this type of method of creating rhinestone patterns. Yeah, some people have more patience than me. I needed to put the boards down and get back to making some real money.

I started researching the automated/robotic machines and had even put a deposit down on the CAMS 6-head machine and purchased some supplementary equipment for it, when I thought I'd give Permaboss a call and see if they could help me sell the Mini Motif Maker (by giving me some more specs about it and such). BTW it IS a normal CNC machine.

The CAMS machine was over my budget (40k PLUS about $4k in a used compressor and refrigerated air cooler/dryer, AND I had to have 240v installed) but did what I needed, though I was unenthused about their software which seemed primitive. I'd been using RhinestoneWorx for some time and it was getting easier and faster to make designs.

Rob kind of stopped me in my tracks when he said he'd just launched a smaller version of the Libero automated rhinestone machine (did I buy version 1.0 again? Well, not really since it was simply a smaller version of their time-tested larger machine). It was $25k or so but he did 2 things to help me stick to my budget:
1. Gave me full credit (100% trade in) for the Mini Motif Maker equipment ($5k) as a discount off the Libero;
2. Helped me sell the MMM AND I got to keep all the money. I sold it for $1700 on ebay and the buyer, a sign maker, is still quite happy with it.

So that was $6700 back on my original investment of $9k on the MMM, AND I could still of course use the RhinestoneWorx software w/ the Libero which saved me new software costs (I had to convert my files over to the Libero format but they had a way to do this almost automatically).

The Libero single head machine has a single hopper for a single rhinestone element (color or size), and a single head that picks them up, unlike the CAMS which has multiple hoppers so you can't create a multiple-element design w/out work changing out the stones and/or head/tip between each new element. That can be a bummer BUT I purchased extra plates which hold the transfer paper. I now have 6 and can run usually about 24-30 designs one color at a time and it cuts down the switching by a factor of 6. I may even buy more plates in the future.

Also note I get by NICELY with a $500 Crafstman compressor that runs on 120V. It only runs for about 2 minutes, every 8 mins or so (25% duty). And instead of a refrigerated air cooler, I use a $150 dessicant dryer which does not use any power. The Libero itself runs on a 120v-240v step-up transformer.

After shipping and such I probably ended up spending about $21k or so + tax on the Libero, though I'm leasing it and there's interest (though it's great to have a low monthly payment and retain my capital).

I've been using the Libero almost daily for about 4 months. It is very well constructed, and this time really made in Europe (Austria). It is a sturdy machine and all the parts are high quality and well-constructed. A lot of thought and machining went into this. BUT to save costs and reduce the number of expensive things that can break, for example it doesn't use lasers like CAMS does to tell when a stone is positioned correctly in the hopper. It uses a vacuum after it attempts to pick up a stone. This can be a little slower since it has to try to pick it up before it knows if it's successful or not, while CAMS just won't try until a stone is in the right placs, BUT overall the Libero is a faster machine anyway. I get about 85 stones per minute compared to 60-65 the CAMS was getting when I was evaluating it in person in Fullerton, CA.

Let me continue to use the Libero for a few more months before I do a final report on my overall success with it. I am still trying to work out some minor kinks and still getting used to the FEEL of the machine (it just takes experience and use to know exactly how to position the tip each time for example). I have tried to train someone else to use it but no luck yet. The learning curve is high but I don't suspect it's any different w/ equipment like this. CAMS learning curve was pretty high as well. Even the trainer wasn't particularly skilled and had been running it A-Z at shows and doing training for years on it. Some days it runs for 20 hours in a row with nary a misplaced or overturned stone to be found. Other days I can't get it to make a straight line. I just finished a project that used about 200,000 Korean stones and I've decided I was quite happy with the results. It took about 40 hours of machine time for this project.

Again, I'll follow up in 6 months or so.
 
Again, I'll follow up in 6 months or so.
Well it's 11 months later and I love the Libero - no complaints! It's fast, accurate, doesn't use a lot of electricity, doesn't use a lot of air, the UI on the PC is great, I've gotten to know the RhinestoneWorx software inside and out and am very fast at it, even trained others to be quick with it.

Parts are not showing signs of wear, easy to maintain, grease and clean.

Look, I don't need more competition, and would love if nobody else bought rhinestone machines. ;) But - I feel I have an obligation to take the time to report back on my successes with the Libero after using it for more than a year. It's a good piece of equipment and I have gotten good support (mostly in the form of friendly answers to my stupid questions) from Permaboss. Thumbs up!
 
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