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This is very important but no one addressed. I guess not many are concering about Color profiles. How many different Color Profile have been done on software. I am surprised there were no questions on it.
Most important on any RIP or Garment Creator or any are COLOR PROFILES. Controls White ink amount and software understand back ground shirts color to reduce ink usage and soften.(feels). Side effect can be Speed. TSF member should understand more about Importancy of Color Profiles. White and Blank shirts only will never cut. Never.
Cheers! Inks are on me always.
 

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Jerid,
I will address simple and straight.:)
If Garment Creator is as good as 3rd party RIP. Why you selling Cadlink?
Do not make sense again.
I believe Tigers(AA tech team name). They will die before they become second.
Cheers! RIPs are on me always.
I will address this with you one last time and no more. You hear only what you want to you hear and you spin things to only make your product look better than anything else. Again, this is the last time I am discussing this and only for clarification, I will not respond again.

I NEVER stated Garment Creator can do everything a RIP can do. As a matter of fact, I stated the opposite, I did say that Garment Creator does a great job and a RIP can be beneficial as well. The pictures you have shown with the white layer isn't the final product for Garment Creator and I've personally printed shirts that had white layers generated using that appeared more like your print from RIP.

Epson is aware of this need and has built it into the very latest Garment Creator. Does this completely eliminate a RIP? No, but it does narrow the gap tremendously. Some people will not want a RIP, some people will. Some people will not NEED a RIP and some people will.

As for why we chose CadLink? Because there are features with CadLink that can replace the need to even open Photoshop. Increasing the file's resolution while not losing quality and removing various types of backgrounds with little to no effort are a couple of these features. No matter what RIP someone chooses or they simply use Garment Creator, an editing program will need to be opened. Obviously not for every print, but if there needs to be any kind of file manipulation to take place with customers' "Camera Ready" art, CadLink gives you tools to address this.

So once again, for clarification, I never stated for anyone to ever look away from a RIP, I simply acknowledged Epson for what they had accomplished and with how closely Garment Creator handles files similar to how a RIP would. Someone can print amazing results with what comes out of the box. So for me to tell people they absolutely must have a RIP is not only an insult to Epson and their accomplishments, it's also a sale's tactic I don't believe to be true since a good handful of people will be more than pleasantly surprised and happy with Garment Creator since it will fit their needs.
 

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I see your points. But you and I and many more know there are better choice include who witnessed with own eyes. Can you deny 3rd party RIP will bring F2000 to higher scale? Why settle with less while there are better? Invest $20000 should be dandy and classic and doing best. ***I never mean to AA's RIP****RIPs in general***. All RIP company offers free demo trials. Let end users choose. I think it is "good to know info base" to TSF members. There are choices. Especially to who are interest in Epson F2000.
Do you also can deny on more color profiles loaded on software will have high fort? You and me as a resellers. Shouldn't we offer the best to our customers with what we have? Yours can be better than AA's. All depends on end users eyes and minds.
Majority of TSF members are not aware Color Profile's Importancy. Disagree on this too?
Many of them think as CYMK is the "color profile" but you and I know it is much much deeper than that, right?
Rodney recently said "Agree to Disagree". Great sentence. Means a lot and liked it.
Cheers! Inks are on me always.
 

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We are waiting for our printer to come back from Epson. Once it's back, I'll print some samples and show both ways the white can be generated.
i will be waiting too

since neorip2000 will be avaiable for AA Epson Customer only, while im outside us

its epson anyway, tthey have the unlimited resource and IT tech to mimic/copy Khotari RIP if they trying.....

i hope it can stop black ink printing in black shirt too!
 

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Not mentioned Ink saving and time on 3rd party RIP. 40% plus minus is lots of money to me. Doesn't it to you Jerid?
Cheers! Inks are om me always.
Peter, This must be about the 5th or 6th post where you promote how a RIP can save you money, by saving on the underbase. While in general I like that as we also sell a RIP, you know (or at least I hope you know) its a loaded statement.

So for clarity I want to make two points about this statement.
1. Garment Creator works with PNG and transparency in the same way a RIP does, so if you setup the image in Photoshop with transparency first you can save just as much ink as the RIP. Just be setting up areas with transparency as required.
Also GC (at least the version I have) does not do the blends well when you remove a background such as black (I know Jerid has a different version that he tells me does and I do believe him as its not rocket science and its Epson we are talking about), so in GC the workflow is design for you to do this post processing in Photoshop.
So GC can be used to save ink or not the same as a RIP, just depends how you setup your workflow.

2. I have had several discussion with various people in Epson, on 3 different continents and all said they same thing and that is the pre treatment is design to bind to the white not the CMYK and for durability when washing you need white between any colors and the shirt. So there will be a compromising in saving ink and durability.

Peter I am sure you will come back with a reply and just so you know I am not trying to start a fight about this, just trying to put some clarity on your statements as I want users to make a well educated decision when purchasing these machines and buy a RIP for the right reasons.

The right reasons are we produce
better quality,
its faster (both to RIP and print),
its easier to use (much easier),
provide greater control over the work flow for advance user
provide easy to use tools for novice users who are not experts in Photoshop
In short it a complete production management system and much more than a simple driver.

Best regards

-David
 

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Dave - as one of the resident RIP experts, can you elaborate on why some RIP's produce a smoother, higher quality, crisper image than others? I am not talking about color reproduction, speed, profiling, linearization, etc.....but why with the same hardware, same ink, same environment, same art, one print looks substantially better.

Especially interested in why some RIP's handle fades and gradients so much better. Some of the best prints I remember getting were on the original Tjets using the Epson driver and two passes on white T's. (I know that is easier than a dark T with an under base) If you used the outer glow feature from Photoshop on an oval, and then feathered the selection, the gradient with the Epson driver was a smooth seamless transition, on some of the later machines and RIP's the gradient was much less smooth and very stepped.

As another example, there is a flaming guitar logo that gets used around here quite a bit. Some of the RIP's reproduce the flames and the fade out to the shirt smoothly, reproducing the image perfectly, the rest........not so much.

Sorry for the rambling, but I have wondered about this for years.
 

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Good morning David, :)
1st. There are no topic was not repeated in TSF. All are repeated by different person, date, place ---.
Matter of fact you should repeat this more if you do not mind. Great education and great info to who are Newbie in TSF. No newbies will read 1,432,597 posts here.:)
2nd. Your long post (always admire, dislike other's long one) is Not much different stream than mine. You used way better English than mine. I will trade in with everything I have on your English.:) because this is one wish I will never archive.
3rd. You are the last person I want to fight(debate) with. Your RIP knowledge is way deeper than mine. Also, you are very nice guy who I want to go fishing with and drinking beer. Can I invite you to my boat? Lol.
Bottom line is
Choose RIP is as important as Choose Printer because as you said INK saving is the biggest.
We do not want to 70s 8 cylinder Chevy mileage. Right?
I will copy yours and repeatedly post for remind to newbies. Since you are not favor for repeating.
Heading out to Aeoon Austria this afternoon again. I was there last week. It's fun except flying. Customer from Germany want to meet Managing Director(in USA president)
I hope I will have beers with you at FESPA 5/20-23 Munich.
Aeoon is 1.5 hour way.
Cheers! Beers are on me always.
 

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i will be waiting too

***since neorip2000 will be avaiable for AA Epson Customer only, while im outside USA***

its epson anyway, !
None Sense!!!! Available to ALL! No matter where you are No matter who you bought from. All Rip suppliers have no problem to send demo to you for free.
Just PM away.
Cheers! Rips are on me always.
 

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Dave - as one of the resident RIP experts, can you elaborate on why some RIP's produce a smoother, higher quality, crisper image than others? I am not talking about color reproduction, speed, profiling, linearization, etc.....but why with the same hardware, same ink, same environment, same art, one print looks substantially better.

Especially interested in why some RIP's handle fades and gradients so much better. Some of the best prints I remember getting were on the original Tjets using the Epson driver and two passes on white T's. (I know that is easier than a dark T with an under base) If you used the outer glow feature from Photoshop on an oval, and then feathered the selection, the gradient with the Epson driver was a smooth seamless transition, on some of the later machines and RIP's the gradient was much less smooth and very stepped.

As another example, there is a flaming guitar logo that gets used around here quite a bit. Some of the RIP's reproduce the flames and the fade out to the shirt smoothly, reproducing the image perfectly, the rest........not so much.

Sorry for the rambling, but I have wondered about this for years.
I wish I could answer this in a single paragraph, but I cant.
There are all sorts of reasons why a gradient can print smoother with one driver / RIP than another.

As an example the way the ink volumes are handled and the screening can cause stepping in the output, when creating the design you typically have 256 shades of each primary, but if you use a simple 256 color lookup table (transfer curve) and a 256 color screening system and used the transfer curve to control the ink limits, then if you ink back 50%, you end up with only 128 colors. So that could be a reason.
By the way we use a 16bit screening system (64,000 shades) and we do this so that no matter how far we ink back with the transfer curve we always have way more than 256 shades. You would actually have to ink back to less that 1/256 of the total ink volume before you would effectively lose any shades.

Another example is a gradient in Illustrator or Corel can be output in different ways.
In PDF or as a PS level 3 file it can use shaded fills which describe the gradient in a pure maths form and not limited by a color space (think between 0 and 1 and any number 12 decimal places rather than a simple 1 to 256.
However if you print through a GDI (Windows) driver or as a bitmap then you are limited to the 1 to 256 range.

The flaming guitar which I have seen and is printed on a black shirt with white is a bitmap and the good and bad prints of this have more to do with the approach to handling white ink and working on black shirts than anything else (typically). This is really down to fixing the white ink generated for an image and profiling techniques, so that you get a known amount of black removal and compensate for this via the profile to get shadow details.

So I know you said its not about profiling, linearization, but all this is very much a part of it and can be part of a problem.


Best regards

-David
 

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Dave - awesome reply! I have a follow up, with an example.

In the pic below, focusing on the area to the left of the upper neck, is it the white under base management, or a more restricted color LUT(look up table), that causes the print on the right to not transition as smoothly at the edges as the print on the left? Or is it both? If both, which do you deem more critical in getting the smooth gradients and transitions?

Thanks for taking the time to help us "cavemen" :) understand fire........

Zilla
 

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Dave - awesome reply! I have a follow up, with an example.

In the pic below, focusing on the area to the left of the upper neck, is it the white under base management, or a more restricted color LUT(look up table), that causes the print on the right to not transition as smoothly at the edges as the print on the left? Or is it both? If both, which do you deem more critical in getting the smooth gradients and transitions?

Thanks for taking the time to help us "cavemen" :) understand fire........

Zilla
Did you print the examples? Which brand and version did you use?
 

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Did you print the examples? Which brand and version did you use?
I do not want to turn this into mine is better than yours thread, I just want to keep it generic. If you want the details, search "choosing proper dtg rip", it's an old thread, and I just borrowed the pics.
 

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I do not want to turn this into mine is better than yours thread, I just want to keep it generic. If you want the details, search "choosing proper dtg rip", it's an old thread, and I just borrowed the pics.
Where did you get the idea that I was going to one up you? I was just curious to know if the example shown was used with two different Rips and which versions. There is a significant difference between the two. Thats what this thread is about. Comparing Rips.
 
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