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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This question is for those familiar with vector graphics and vinyl transfers.

What do you find is the best way to do multi-colored vinyl transfers?

Do you prefer layering the colors over one another, or is it better to punch out the layers in the vector so that there would be no multiple layers of color on the shirt?

Are there any issues with layering colors over one another, like overheating previous layers or something?

I'm just trying to avoid a little trail and error here.

Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you jdr.

That's kind of what I thought, even though I was hoping I could layer colors much the same way you would in creating a vinyl sign using typical sign vinyl. Since ThermoFlex really has no adhesive, I wondered if it would bond to itself with heat.

Are there any other opinions or techniques on this topic?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Update:
Although I respect and will use jdr8271's suggestion of not layering different colors of ThermoFlex Plus, I was still curious as to the possibilities of this since there were no other comments about it.

I called Specialty Materials, the makers of ThermoFlex, to see what they might say about it. Keeping in mind that I only talked to one person there, she said that multiple layers would be no problem except for the thicker feel of multiple layers. Two or three layers are common, and she has heard of up to six layers of color.
So I asked again if there were any problems with the material bonding to itself with a heat press. The answer was no. As long as the first layer is properly applied, the next layer would bond to the first.

That being said, I still think I will follow the advise to remove underlying layers in the vector graphic first. It would be a lighter feel to the finished product, and probably a better bond.
 

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While the thermoflex vinyl may bond to each other innitially, it would just look wierd and unprofessional to have overlapping layers. Over time, it may fall apart. Thermoflex vinyl would not be the best choice for this type of application since it is pvc based.

Spectra Cut II vinyl is polyurethane based, and therefore would melt together better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thank you jdr8271,

In the sign business, using sign vinyl, overlapping colors is quite common. Say you have a word with a drop shadow for instance, the shadow would be applied first and the word applied over it. But that is a different application with a different type of vinyl so I wanted to be sure about the preferred technique for vinyl transfers.

So, I cleaned up one of my graphics and removed the underlying (hidden) layers and tried it out on 3 shirts. One was red, one was blue and one was a grey sweatshirt. I applied 3 colors of ThermoFlex to each shirt, which was some text, and drop shadow and a small graphic, and they all turned out great with no overlapping colors.
 

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I'm looking into getting a vinyl cutter at some point too, and I was wondering how easy it is to do multiple colors without overlapping?

If I understand correctly (though I haven't ever seen a clear & complete description of how the process works), the vinyl is fed into the cutter, which the software tells to cut into the shape of your design. You manually (or I guess there are some add-ons that help do this for you) weed away the excess vinyl, and you are left with your design on a carrier paper which you can then transfer to the shirt.

Now, assuming that is correct (which it may not be), do you have to manually cut away the extra carrier paper and fit your multiple colors together like a jigsaw puzzle? Or is there a more painless and simple way to do it?
 

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You have the basic process down. The material is mounted on a clear carrier sheet and you can heat apply one on top of the other. So if I had a two color number and my background was white and foreground black, I would cut, weed & apply the white color first to the shirt and then I would cut, weed, register & apply the black color over top of the design. As stated prior, with a polyurethane based material you can feel free to layer as many colors as you want without having to cut out extra portions and inlay colors. The polyurethane based material is still guaranteed to outlast the life of the garment when layered. I am not sure of the durability and/or feel when using a PVC based material.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Twinge said:
I'm looking into getting a vinyl cutter at some point too, and I was wondering how easy it is to do multiple colors without overlapping?
Once you know how it's not that hard to do at all. You will be working in a software program of your choice that works with vector based graphics, examples are Adobe Illustrator, Macromedia FreeHand, Corel Draw, or my favorite Vinyl Master Pro. Each program has it's own way of doing things. The easiest way is to design your graphic or text within the program until you like how it looks, and then worry about removing any overlapping colors.
There is a difference between working with raster based images (bmp, jpg, gif) and vector based images which you will learn. You might already know this Twinge, but I for the sake of others reading this thread I thought I would mention that.

If I understand correctly (though I haven't ever seen a clear & complete description of how the process works), the vinyl is fed into the cutter, which the software tells to cut into the shape of your design. You manually (or I guess there are some add-ons that help do this for you) weed away the excess vinyl, and you are left with your design on a carrier paper which you can then transfer to the shirt.
Yes, that's about right. You design your image within your program. When finished with your design, you can remove overlapping colors if prefered. Then you flip your design so that it is reversed, (a mirror image), send it to the cutter, (also known as a plotter) and the plotter cuts your material (ThermoFlex) for the t-shirt. Then you manually weed (remove the areas cut in the material that are not part of your design) the ThermoFlex. Now you are left with your design that is still attached to the ThermoFlex backing, (a clear plastic that is slightly sticky to help hold your design in place).

Now, assuming that is correct (which it may not be), do you have to manually cut away the extra carrier paper and fit your multiple colors together like a jigsaw puzzle? Or is there a more painless and simple way to do it?
You do not have to manually remove any of the clear backing. None of the backing is transfered to your shirt, only the ThermoFlex material is applied. The backing is clear, so it's very easy to line up multiple colors by sight. If you have removed the overlapping colors in your design, then start with the largest color, line it up like you would any other transfer, except you need to keep in mind the overall design. If you have a color that is at the top of your design, remember to allow room for it so your design is placed properly on the shirt. Start with the main color and press using craft paper instead of teflon. (no need for teflon) Then place your next color and press again and so on. It does not matter if the clear backing of the next color overlaps the layers you already have pressed. You do not need to trim this away.

If you did not remove overlapping colors, then start with the background colors and work your way up.

I use Vinyl Master Pro software, and a Summa D60 plotter for this.
 

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Okay, thanks you two - I wasn't too far off then! =)

I do have a few more specific questions:

How thin can lines be and still transfer well? I think I've heard they can go pretty small (2-3 pixel) but not tiny (1 pixel), but I really don't know. We have some designs with thin line-drawing and are wondering if they'll work 'as is' with vinyl.

How hard is it to weed away the excess material? Do you have to pick at each piece you don't want to transfer, making it a major pain for very complicated designs - and, if this is the case, what do you do when you accidentally pull up one of the good parts? Or, is it more of a simpler 'wipe away' process? We have some designs with lots of little sections each seperated individually, so that could potentially be rather time consuming. Also, are there any special tools you use to help weed? Do you have to use exacto knives to pick out small segments, etc.? I think I've seen some $300 device that is supposed to weed for you, but I don't know if those are worth it or if they're junk.

Can you use high quality (300dpi) raster instead of vector? I understand the image quality might be slightly less, but do most plotters absolutely NEED vector or is it just recommended? (I'm guessing they do need it because of how they work, but thought I'd ask to make sure.) If I do need to convert everything to vector, how well do some of these raster-to-vector convertors work? We've got some complicated, hand-drawn images that we've scanned in, and would like to be able to use them with vinyl if possible =) (which also ties into the thin lines, hehe)

While I'm at it, I might as well ask this one too -- What plotter(s) would you folks recommend? I'd probably want 10" width minimum, but I think when I was looking most of them were at least 12" anyway. I definately don't need a giant 24" one or such.

Edit: Oh, almost forgot to ask: Why craft paper instead of teflon? I'm already used to using teflon for everything else; is this a matter of 'craft paper will work just as well', or is there a reason to NOT use teflon here?
 

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Okay, thanks you two - I wasn't too far off then! =)

I do have a few more specific questions:

How thin can lines be and still transfer well? I think I've heard they can go pretty small (2-3 pixel) but not tiny (1 pixel), but I really don't know. We have some designs with thin line-drawing and are wondering if they'll work 'as is' with vinyl.
You can get really thin without there being a problem. I usually make the lines about 2-4 pixels, but You could do 1 pixel. The machine will cut it without a problem, no matter how small the pieces are. The trouble can come into play, when you have a really small piece that has to be picked out of the vinyl.

How hard is it to weed away the excess material? Do you have to pick at each piece you don't want to transfer, making it a major pain for very complicated designs - and, if this is the case, what do you do when you accidentally pull up one of the good parts? Or, is it more of a simpler 'wipe away' process? We have some designs with lots of little sections each seperated individually, so that could potentially be rather time consuming. Also, are there any special tools you use to help weed? Do you have to use exacto knives to pick out small segments, etc.? I think I've seen some $300 device that is supposed to weed for you, but I don't know if those are worth it or if they're junk.
It can be very difficult, or ery easy depending on how detailed your image is. For simple text, it is very simple, but for a complicated image weeding away can be time consuming. I use an exacto knime for picking out little pieces, but use my fingers for larger pieces.

I think I've seen some $300 device that is supposed to weed for you, but I don't know if those are worth it or if they're junk.
Twinge, Id actually be interested in buying one of those ;) . Would you be able to direct me to where you saw that.

Can you use high quality (300dpi) raster instead of vector? I understand the image quality might be slightly less, but do most plotters absolutely NEED vector or is it just recommended? (I'm guessing they do need it because of how they work, but thought I'd ask to make sure.) If I do need to convert everything to vector, how well do some of these raster-to-vector convertors work? We've got some complicated, hand-drawn images that we've scanned in, and would like to be able to use them with vinyl if possible =) (which also ties into the thin lines, hehe)
The image ultimately does have to be a vector. Some programs will allow you to imput a bitmap, which it traces and turns into a vector, but there will potentially be a loss of quality if you do it this way. I would reccomen only using vectors, and if you have to trace bitmaps, do it yourself...they will turn out better than if the computer does it for you.

Or better yet, if you have macromedia flash, there is a great tool, that you can paste a bitmap into the program. Convert your bitmap to two colors (black and white) and paste it into macromedia flash (you can use irfan view for this). Then go to modify>bitmap>trace bitmap. The great thing about flash is that it is compatible with the stika cutting program (Dr. Stika), while illustrator is not.

While I'm at it, I might as well ask this one too -- What plotter(s) would you folks recommend? I'd probably want 10" width minimum, but I think when I was looking most of them were at least 12" anyway. I definately don't need a giant 24" one or such.
Get a 15" plotter deffinitely, becuase that is the size that thermoflex plus comes in. I have the roland Stika SC-15. So far it has worked without a problem for me.

Edit: Oh, almost forgot to ask: Why craft paper instead of teflon? I'm already used to using teflon for everything else; is this a matter of 'craft paper will work just as well', or is there a reason to NOT use teflon here?
Not sure what your talking about here...I know I have never heard of craft paper and have not had a problem transfering vinyl. I dont use a teflon sheet either. There is no need for one. The only teflon is the pad on my press, and the coating on the top of the press.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Twinge said:
Okay, thanks you two - I wasn't too far off then! =)

I do have a few more specific questions:

How thin can lines be and still transfer well? I think I've heard they can go pretty small (2-3 pixel) but not tiny (1 pixel), but I really don't know. We have some designs with thin line-drawing and are wondering if they'll work 'as is' with vinyl.
The lines can get pretty thin, but remember that the more detailed a design is, the harder it can be to weed. Thermoflex is a lot easier to weed than regular sign vinyl is though. You will soon laern what is easy in vinyl and what is not.


How hard is it to weed away the excess material? Do you have to pick at each piece you don't want to transfer, making it a major pain for very complicated designs - and, if this is the case, what do you do when you accidentally pull up one of the good parts? Or, is it more of a simpler 'wipe away' process? We have some designs with lots of little sections each seperated individually, so that could potentially be rather time consuming. Also, are there any special tools you use to help weed? Do you have to use exacto knives to pick out small segments, etc.? I think I've seen some $300 device that is supposed to weed for you, but I don't know if those are worth it or if they're junk.
How hard it is to weed depends on a few things, like plotter settings and stuff, but mainly it depends on the design. Simple text, line drawings, a few colors, are not hard to weed. Very small text (1/4") is hard to weed, whereas 1/2" text is much easier. Most text and basic color images are easy enough to do. Photorealistic images are not possible. There is no wipe away process. Each piece that is not wanted must be weeded away. In some cases that can mean getting a start on a corner and carefully pulling away a whole line of text, and then just removing the wholes, like in a letter D or B. Exacto Knives can be used as well as a pin tool, but by far the best way is with weeding tweezers. These are very sharp pin point tweezers.

That $300+ device you refer to is made for sign vinyl, and it's called a Weeder. It's made by Bold Advertizing Products. It would not be practical at all for what you need, and in fact I don't think it works that great for it's intended purpose either. They do make a product called a Sheeter that is for sign vinyl that is awesome!
However, you do not use it, or need it for Thermoflex. It's for sign vinyl.

Can you use high quality (300dpi) raster instead of vector? I understand the image quality might be slightly less, but do most plotters absolutely NEED vector or is it just recommended? (I'm guessing they do need it because of how they work, but thought I'd ask to make sure.) If I do need to convert everything to vector, how well do some of these raster-to-vector convertors work? We've got some complicated, hand-drawn images that we've scanned in, and would like to be able to use them with vinyl if possible =) (which also ties into the thin lines, hehe)
No, no raster image will even be recognized by a cutter/plotter. A vector based image is like a road map, with each line and curve representing a path. These paths are calculated and fed into your cutter for the blade to follow. A vector image can be reduced or enlarged to any size without loss of quality to the image. A rastor image is nothing but thousands of little dots to put it simply.
Ther are a few programs that can do a fair job of converting a raster (bitmap) image into a vector. These are called trace programs. Nothing will do a great job on detailed or complex color bitmaps. In many cases, cut vinyl is not the way to go for a transfer. It becomes to time consuming for many color layers, or high quantity jobs.

While I'm at it, I might as well ask this one too -- What plotter(s) would you folks recommend? I'd probably want 10" width minimum, but I think when I was looking most of them were at least 12" anyway. I definately don't need a giant 24" one or such.
You have to have at least a 15" for the ThermoFlex rolls, however I would not recommend any less than a 24". A 24" is not considered a giant. The Stikas are not really considered to be a very good cutter. They are like little home/hobby cutters. They might work, but there are much better cutters for not that much more money. Look into Roland's other cutter/plotters. Look into Summa, Lynx, Graphtek etc. Look into refurbished equipment also.

Edit: Oh, almost forgot to ask: Why craft paper instead of teflon? I'm already used to using teflon for everything else; is this a matter of 'craft paper will work just as well', or is there a reason to NOT use teflon here?
Yes, craft paper will work just as well. Every roll of ThermoFlex I get comes with a sheet of Craft paper anyway. It is used mostly to protect your heat platten on your press, and to not melt the previous layers of color you may have already pressed onto the shirt. You can use a teflon sheet if you want to though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
jdr8271 said:
Twinge, Id actually be interested in buying one of those ;) . Would you be able to direct me to where you saw that.
I think he is refering to the Weeder from Bold Advertising Products. THe Weeder has not received great reviews from the sign forums, and it's not really practical at all for ThermoFlex and t-shirts. The company does make an excellent product for sign vinyl/decals called a sheeter, which applies transfer paper to already weeded sign vinyl though. Not nessasary for ThermoFlex. Here is a link so you can see for yourself.. http://www.weedersheeter.com/index.htm


Get a 15" plotter deffinitely, becuase that is the size that thermoflex plus comes in. I have the roland Stika SC-15. So far it has worked without a problem for me.
I agree that you need at least a 15" plotter. The Stikas are not that great, but the 15" is twice as fast and better than their smaller models.


Not sure what your talking about here...I know I have never heard of craft paper and have not had a problem transfering vinyl. I dont use a teflon sheet either. There is no need for one. The only teflon is the pad on my press, and the coating on the top of the press.
As you know, Teflon is used for printed transfers to protect the press from the transfer, but you don't really need it for ThermoFlex. The craft paper does the same thing really, it protects your press, and it protects previously press layers of color from the press. You could get by with out it, but why risk it? They recommend it at TLM Supply House and supply a sheet with every roll.
 

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Edit: Geez, somehow missed Decal's response to jdr from almost a day ago; oh well, I'll just leave this post as is.

jdr8271 said:
You can get really thin without there being a problem. I usually make the lines about 2-4 pixels, but You could do 1 pixel. The machine will cut it without a problem, no matter how small the pieces are. The trouble can come into play, when you have a really small piece that has to be picked out of the vinyl.
Good to know. We had some problems with one of our designs we did in plastisol with the lines being too thin; of course, that could also be partially becaue our press is on the fritz too.

jdr8271 said:
Twinge, Id actually be interested in buying one of those ;) . Would you be able to direct me to where you saw that.
As Decal said below, it sounds like they are made for sign vinyl only, but here's what we're talking about at any rate: http://www.smartdesigns.com/weedersheeter.htm


jdr8271 said:
The image ultimately does have to be a vector. Some programs will allow you to imput a bitmap, which it traces and turns into a vector, but there will potentially be a loss of quality if you do it this way. I would reccomen only using vectors, and if you have to trace bitmaps, do it yourself...they will turn out better than if the computer does it for you.
Yeah... I have had a LITTLE experience with vector anyway. I'll have to try some tracers and see how well they do; might be easier to have it auto-traced then manually fix it rather than do it all manual - which takes a pretty long time from my experience, but of course I'm not really used to it either.


jdr8271 said:
Or better yet, if you have macromedia flash, there is a great tool, that you can paste a bitmap into the program. Convert your bitmap to two colors (black and white) and paste it into macromedia flash (you can use irfan view for this). Then go to modify>bitmap>trace bitmap. The great thing about flash is that it is compatible with the stika cutting program (Dr. Stika), while illustrator is not.
I'll try to keep that in mind as something else to try out.

jdr8271 said:
Get a 15" plotter deffinitely, becuase that is the size that thermoflex plus comes in. I have the roland Stika SC-15. So far it has worked without a problem for me.
The Thermoflex on the TLM site comes in many sizes; 10, 12, 15, and larger.

jdr8271 said:
Not sure what your talking about here...I know I have never heard of craft paper and have not had a problem transfering vinyl. I dont use a teflon sheet either. There is no need for one. The only teflon is the pad on my press, and the coating on the top of the press.
This was in response to a comment Decal made, already covered now =)
 

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Decal_Designs said:
The lines can get pretty thin, but remember that the more detailed a design is, the harder it can be to weed. Thermoflex is a lot easier to weed than regular sign vinyl is though. You will soon laern what is easy in vinyl and what is not.
Fair enough.


Decal_Designs said:
How hard it is to weed depends on a few things, like plotter settings and stuff, but mainly it depends on the design. Simple text, line drawings, a few colors, are not hard to weed. Very small text (1/4") is hard to weed, whereas 1/2" text is much easier. Most text and basic color images are easy enough to do. Photorealistic images are not possible. There is no wipe away process. Each piece that is not wanted must be weeded away. In some cases that can mean getting a start on a corner and carefully pulling away a whole line of text, and then just removing the wholes, like in a letter D or B. Exacto Knives can be used as well as a pin tool, but by far the best way is with weeding tweezers. These are very sharp pin point tweezers.
Yeah I saw a small kit for about $15 when I was looking for that Weeder thing again... had all of the tools you listed, so I guess I'll pick one of those up if/when we get a plotter.

Decal_Designs said:
That $300+ device you refer to is made for sign vinyl, and it's called a Weeder. It's made by Bold Advertizing Products. It would not be practical at all for what you need, and in fact I don't think it works that great for it's intended purpose either. They do make a product called a Sheeter that is for sign vinyl that is awesome!
However, you do not use it, or need it for Thermoflex. It's for sign vinyl.
Shame. Someone could make some mondo bucks if they perfected an automatic weeder =)

Decal_Designs said:
No, no raster image will even be recognized by a cutter/plotter. A vector based image is like a road map, with each line and curve representing a path. These paths are calculated and fed into your cutter for the blade to follow. A vector image can be reduced or enlarged to any size without loss of quality to the image. A rastor image is nothing but thousands of little dots to put it simply.
Ther are a few programs that can do a fair job of converting a raster (bitmap) image into a vector. These are called trace programs. Nothing will do a great job on detailed or complex color bitmaps. In many cases, cut vinyl is not the way to go for a transfer. It becomes to time consuming for many color layers, or high quantity jobs.
That's pretty much what I guessed. I know what vector is, I just wasn't 100% certain of the way the plotters cut the vinyl.

Decal_Designs said:
You have to have at least a 15" for the ThermoFlex rolls, however I would not recommend any less than a 24". A 24" is not considered a giant. The Stikas are not really considered to be a very good cutter. They are like little home/hobby cutters. They might work, but there are much better cutters for not that much more money. Look into Roland's other cutter/plotters. Look into Summa, Lynx, Graphtek etc. Look into refurbished equipment also.
Why do you guys both say Thermoflex has a 15" minimum? TLM has it in several other sizes, as I said to jrd -- http://www.personalizedsupplies.com/thermoflex_plus_pricing.htm

What would be the point of getting a 24" plotter for t-shirt work? Seems like a lot of overkill to me, considering I've only been using 8.5x11 transfers anyway =) a 12" cutter could already do larger images than I can now; 24" seems like I'd end up wasting a lot more vinyl too. 15" might be an okay idea, but 24 seems like it'd take up too much room and cost more for very little additional advantage.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Twinge said:
......

Why do you guys both say Thermoflex has a 15" minimum? TLM has it in several other sizes, as I said to jrd -- http://www.personalizedsupplies.com/thermoflex_plus_pricing.htm
Yeah, I see that now. I must have overlooked that when I ordered the first time.

What would be the point of getting a 24" plotter for t-shirt work? Seems like a lot of overkill to me, considering I've only been using 8.5x11 transfers anyway =) a 12" cutter could already do larger images than I can now; 24" seems like I'd end up wasting a lot more vinyl too. 15" might be an okay idea, but 24 seems like it'd take up too much room and cost more for very little additional advantage.
Generally, that is the size that the plotters start getting better in quality. Better drive motors, faster cutting, better tracking. That may not be the case of all plotters out there, but from the homework I did before I bought a plotter, and on other forums, it seemed to be the general consensus. They do take up a little more room but not that much more. Mine is on it's own stand. I'm not saying you have to have a 24, I'm just suggesting that it might be a better investment for you. One thing to consider might be layout. You can cut 2 sets of transfers side by side on a 24 for t-shirts. This may save time, or material. I'd at least look into them a little before you buy one. Read some reviews. One place to read a lot of information on plotters is at www.signs101.com They are not about t-shirts really, but they do know about plotters.
If you are planning on a Stika, get the biggest one. They are faster than the smaller models and are rated better when looking at the reviews of them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Mind Your Mind said:
Just curious, why do you say the Stikas are not that great? I just bought one..hope I did not make a mistake...
No, I don't think you made a mistake unless you bought one of their smaller models. They are not bad or anything like that. They are made by a good company. It's just that they are more hobby oriented I think than some of the other plotter/cutters available. Roland does make better plotters than the Stikas. Just so you don't worry too much, I have read about many people using the Stikas that are very happy with them. Plus, there are many plotters that are not as good as them. I just read a lot about people that wish they bought a bigger one to start with that's all. If you start doing a lot of quantity, or get asked to do something that at this time you haven't thought of, a larger plotter is nice to have.

I know this is a t-shirt forum, but keep this in mind. Let's say you have a plotter and can make some nice t-shirts with thermoflex. You get a guy that has a small company, and he wants you to make some shirts with his name on them. That's great, you make some shirts and he's happy. But what if you could have also sold him some decals for his truck or van, or even the back window of his car? That happens all the time, and if you can cut thermoflex for a t-shirt, you can also cut sign vinyl for a decal. It's the same process really.

Well back to your question, I just think that as you grow, you might want a larger, or faster, better tracking plotter than the Stika, but it's not a bad plotter.
 

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am new to this ,used to screen print my tops , but now moved into the world of vinyl cutters and heat press application.
When printing multiple layers of vinyl whats the deal with timing? and heat? any replys to this would be well apreciated olly
 

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Hello. While researching the whole layering thing, I was on Specialty's (Thermoflex Plus) website and it states: "ThermoFlex® Plus is a durable polyurethane based material that is highly flexible.", not PVC based. Have you had specific problems with durability when layering Thermoflex Plus?
 
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