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Sounds like fun:) If indeed the print speed is faster it will be something to see for sure, i was never shown a side by side print of the same image after this new setting control you mention.. Also is this a neo specific propreitary setting? I ask because every dtg brand based on a 48xx series i have seen make the full stroke easily seen by watching them print.. sounds like you guys have a competitive edge on other 48xx models... I guess all this doesnt much matter being the 48xx series is discountinued?;) we do all this over here on the diy side for fun:p

EDIT an for 1/3 the machine cost:D
Hi Jeff,
I think most of the pro models have to return to the capping spit station each time but do not have to do the full width, if the rip/machine are set up correctly. The flexi-jets only print out as far as the left hand edge of the pattern but return to the spit station on the left hand of the capping station each time. I think this is why the neoflex platens are turned towards the capping station, with the software fix and production mode, I'm sure the print times are greatly improved.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4,142 · (Edited)
Hi Jeff,
I think most of the pro models have to return to the capping spit station each time but do not have to do the full width, if the rip/machine are set up correctly. The flexi-jets only print out as far as the left hand edge of the pattern but return to the spit station on the left hand of the capping station each time. I think this is why the neoflex platens are turned towards the capping station, with the software fix and production mode, I'm sure the print times are greatly improved.
Hey Josh,

How are things on the home front? I read you guys parted ways with the velocijet? Did you guys purchase a new unit yet, and if so what did you go with? regarding the 48xx machines Im sure there are ways to improve the speed i dont disagree at all, im just saying i have never seen this speed increase to be a dramatic difference and nothing incomparrison to the desktop speed IMHO .. I here alot about you can change the settings/production mode etc but i would guess this affects print qauility:) as the interweaving is done from within on the pro printers (hence a needed higher resolution to get the same coverage that a desktop is able to do in a lower resolution within the rip) I have seen alot of them in action and to me its like watching paint dry and im not singling out any brand its just the nature of the beast with all of them.. aa has a killer rip set up for theres but outside that i could not justify using one of the pro series due to print speed as the desktops will produce (as you know) Awesome prints with a good rip.. you will find it hard to locate a real time print vid on one of these units due to this fact, look for yourself and the ones you do find will speak volumes regarding MHO, besides its a discontinued model..:p Its true they give a great end result but what do you expect when you can catch a power nap while there printing a single full coverage/full print piece...get a chance give us some feed back on your new printer choice for your shop when you can, will be interesting to see what you guys choose for your new toy... we could all right a book on all this stuff with the current ink cost speed is the offsetting factor because high machine cost+high ink cost+slow print= hard road for ROI.. I do see machine cost starting to drop on the epson models and some of the new units like brother/m2/ moment-jet etc .. i think you will see more of this drop as new lower cost machines enter the market, as this is already starting with new units to be found in the 6-10,000 range:) they are getting better and better
 

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I am going to make a video just for you so you can view the print speed. From 8-9 minutes to under 3 minutes. Its are pretty large improvement. If that's what it takes to make you believe then that's what i'll have to do.

The picture I posted above was done in production mode. You will be hard pressed to find any print that can match the detail and quality in the image, let alone get that print size 15.5x27 or so. This was done on the spot at the Long Beach ISS Show in January there was no tinkering with the custom artwork brought to us by the photographer.

If you do a 27 inch long print yes it takes some time. If you are doing 3 shirts at a time, you will be pretty busy pretreating, heatpressing, packaging, loading and unloading. Not much time to nap there.

You are speaking of differences of 20 seconds or so. Which is saved time not have to not having to stop unload reload press print again. Yes the 48xx model is a little slower overall but nothing we can't get around with a little design ingenuity and work with the rip taking the artwork modification step out.

You seem to dislike the 48xx series but we find the public loves it. They seem to last much longer with less issues and has a larger printable area. In my opinion the flexibility of a larger printable area outweighs 10-20 seconds, which is normally made up by not having to stop printing when unloading and reloading. Again this is a preference and not a truth. You may prefer a slightly faster per print speed. I prefer a larger area with the same throughput if not more at the end of the day.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4,144 · (Edited)
I am going to make a video just for you so you can view the print speed. From 8-9 minutes to under 3 minutes. Its are pretty large improvement. If that's what it takes to make you believe then that's what i'll have to do.

The picture I posted above was done in production mode. You will be hard pressed to find any print that can match the detail and quality in the image, let alone get that print size 15.5x27 or so. This was done on the spot at the Long Beach ISS Show in January there was no tinkering with the custom artwork brought to us by the photographer.

If you do a 27 inch long print yes it takes some time. If you are doing 3 shirts at a time, you will be pretty busy pretreating, heatpressing, packaging, loading and unloading. Not much time to nap there.

You are speaking of differences of 20 seconds or so. Which is saved time not have to not having to stop unload reload press print again. Yes the 48xx model is a little slower overall but nothing we can't get around with a little design ingenuity and work with the rip taking the artwork modification step out.

You seem to dislike the 48xx series but we find the public loves it. They seem to last much longer with less issues and has a larger printable area. In my opinion the flexibility of a larger printable area outweighs 10-20 seconds, which is normally made up by not having to stop printing when unloading and reloading. Again this is a preference and not a truth. You may prefer a slightly faster per print speed. I prefer a larger area with the same throughput if not more at the end of the day.
John

As i said im not singling out any brand and i think i did mention you guys have a killer rip... One should be passionate about there product i understand this, but i have shown head to head videos and still you get the setting conversation.. two different brands desktop vs pro series and the result is the same the desktop is faster.. you respond as if im targeting a specific printer (the original vids posted here were not of your brand) time is money and i know you guys understand that shown by your interest in the aeoon printer very fast with lower ink cost from my understanding.. Im just not sure where the miscommunication is here? Lets say for example all things created equal with multiple platen system set up with a desktop (which can be configured to print up to 129 inches as i recall (pic below)@ 129 inches/ 16 thats 8 shirts at once or any configuration there of nothing would touch its speed or workflow capability and it can be done i have done this, so where would this put all the 50,000 plus machines at this kind of production? If you can you imagine running two or more desktops at this production even with a three platen system? advantage, rather than changing preloaded single platen units would be the speed of the desktop and the workflow pretreating/cure of pre/post finished goods (which you do on your system)

You guys may have a propreitary set-up with your unit and may have a better speed, again i said i dont disagree with that but i have never seen it.. As far as a good print speed comparrison the same art should be printed with both machines pro/desk top with the same size print and this will give you a fair comparrison of print speed(maybe a mod user/etc? is willing to print the same art for a speed test?) ((((*******Better yet why not print the flaming guitar in the same size with your enhanced speed settings and post it this would put and end to the conversation and prove you have a competitive advantage over other 48XX models?*********)))) I thought i seen a vid of this nature but was still at 5 mins for one print was this before the new enhancements?

Maybe i should clarify here a bit, most dtg's based on the 48xx series printers that you see print slower in comparrison to a desktop (i posted a vid of the same brand machine both pro and desktop printing the same art and the results are right there on the screen!!) this is common with most of these units (the norm).. I personally cant see investing a considerable sum whether commercial/diy into a printer thats discountinued, and this is one of the reasons i never built a 2200 model epson.. JMHO.. sorta like buying a model a ford the way technology moves.. I really think manufactures should spend more time on a production based epson desktop model/multiple platen system, but i doubt you will see this selling multiple single platen printers/ high cost machines is benefical to the company bottom line rather than vamping up workflow and production ///maybe an expandable unit? I have not seen an all around machine referring to machine cost/ink cost/production capability that fits the end user with out breaking the bank.. I do see lower cost units entering the market and i think this will force the leaders to follow however and or some innovative design changes...
 

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John

As i said im not singling out any brand and i think i did mention you guys have a killer rip... One should be passionate about there product i understand this, but i have shown head to head videos and still you get the setting conversation.. two different brands desktop vs pro series and the result is the same the desktop is faster.. time is money and i know you guys understand that shown by your interest in the aeoon printer very fast with lower ink cost from my understanding.. Im just not sure where the miscommunication is here? Lets say for example all things created equal with multiple platen system set up with a desktop (which can be configured to print up to 129 inches as i recall (pic below)@ 129 inches/ 16 thats 8 shirts at once or any configuration there of nothing would touch its speed or workflow capability and it can be done i have done this, so where would this put all the 50,000 plus machines at this kind of production? If you can you imagine running two or more desktops at this production even with a three platen system? advantage, rather than changing preloaded single platen units would be the speed of the desktop and the workflow pretreating/cure of pre/post finished goods (which you do on your system)

You guys may have a propreitary set-up with your unit and may have a better speed, again i said i dont disagree with that but i have never seen it.. As far as a good print speed comparrison the same art should be printed with both machines pro/desk top with the same size print and this will give you a fair comparrison of print speed(maybe a mod user/etc? is willing to print the same art for a speed test?)

Maybe i should clarify here a bit, most dtg's based on the 48xx series printers that you see print very slow in comparrison to a desktop (i posted a vid of the same brand machine both pro and desktop printing the same art and the results are right there on the screen!!) this is common with most of these units (the norm).. I personally cant see investing a considerable sum whether commercial/diy into a printer thats discountinued, and this is one of the reasons i never built a 2200 model epson.. JMHO.. sorta like buying a model a ford the way technology moves.. I really think manufactures should spend more time on a production based epson desktop model/multiple platen system, but i doubt you will see this selling multiple printers is benefical to the bottom line rather than vamping up workflow and production ///maybe an expandable unit?
I bring it up because it is a misconception. Just because a few manufacturers have this set up a certain way does not mean its right. Why would you not compare apples to apples and compare prints that do not do the full scan width.

I will post a video of the same exact image (flaming guitar). the size they printed seems to be about 13-14 inches in height so we will match it.

We will remove our logo from the bottom so that it will be very similar and also our image will not leave out the details of the glow around the guitar as was missing in the mod-1. I could easily go into photo shop and remove it and you would have a sub 2:30 print.

Again, the 48xx series is slower but not by leaps and bounds like you have been mentioning. I'm not saying modify the 48xx series I'm asking that you acknowledge that information of the past is, well information of the past. It no longer proves to be true. Which is not a bad thing because it indicates things are changing and moving forward. Our rip is great but I have yet to see a smaller model or any other model including the ground up models take advantage of what it can do. This is partly related to the machine as well, not just a rip software.

I just wanted to point out what is on the market now. Not a hypothetical printer that is not on the market. The R2880 has a roll feed option that allows it to go up to 129 inches. Someone should build one utilizing that feature. You would see a drastic increase in production compared to the 1 at a time desktop models on the market.

I'm just saying that I know that the smaller models have a faster per print time but its not to the extent in which you are saying. That is the mis-communication i think we are having. I would like to see a smaller desktop model that is made to do multiple shirts at once. That would solve the over saturation problem with the one shirt setup.
 

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We are in the process of setting up a new shop facility, and when we are completely set up we are going to occasionally stream a live video feed from our production room to our website - people will be able to see exactly how long it takes to print in a real production facility, without editing or interruption; this will provide an unbiased perspective for anyone interested..... And it'll just be a neat website feature, for us!

We have been running our machines almost nonstop recently, and there are many orders were we can only print 4-6 dark shirts per hour (per machine) - our average for a "standard" size print is still around 9 per hour. We do not sacrifice print quality for increased speed, so we stick with the hi-res settings for almost all orders - our clients appreciate this fact, which has allowed me to dramatically grow my business.... However, when producing this level of quality there is no way the print difference is "a few seconds" between the smaller and wider format printers - I guess I still need to evaluate that "Production Mode" to see if it would be worth implementing in my business model.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4,147 · (Edited)
I bring it up because it is a misconception. Just because a few manufacturers have this set up a certain way does not mean its right. Why would you not compare apples to apples and compare prints that do not do the full scan width.

I will post a video of the same exact image (flaming guitar). the size they printed seems to be about 13-14 inches in height so we will match it.

We will remove our logo from the bottom so that it will be very similar and also our image will not leave out the details of the glow around the guitar as was missing in the mod-1. I could easily go into photo shop and remove it and you would have a sub 2:30 print.

Again, the 48xx series is slower but not by leaps and bounds like you have been mentioning. I'm not saying modify the 48xx series I'm asking that you acknowledge that information of the past is, well information of the past. It no longer proves to be true. Which is not a bad thing because it indicates things are changing and moving forward. Our rip is great but I have yet to see a smaller model or any other model including the ground up models take advantage of what it can do. This is partly related to the machine as well, not just a rip software.

I just wanted to point out what is on the market now. Not a hypothetical printer that is not on the market. The R2880 has a roll feed option that allows it to go up to 129 inches. Someone should build one utilizing that feature. You would see a drastic increase in production compared to the 1 at a time desktop models on the market.

I'm just saying that I know that the smaller models have a faster per print time but its not to the extent in which you are saying. That is the mis-communication i think we are having. I would like to see a smaller desktop model that is made to do multiple shirts at once. That would solve the over saturation problem with the one shirt setup.
John,

I only posted existing vids with there print times I dont claim they print any slower or faster than the vid shows:confused: as far as hypothetical/ well lots of this conversation as been based on that? Its not hypothetical (what if) that the 48xx is discountinued it is, so whats its market existence anyway? kind of relative either way you look at it? your promoting a discountinued printers and im promoting existing in production printers potential! even the 1100/1400 series epsons can print up to 44 inches just utilizing this available feature would change production dramatically on a desktop.. the 129 inch feature in the 2880 is (sheet mode) i think its the same for the 2000 but im not 100% on that..
I look forward to the guitar print, it will show where your unit stands in print time, time is a big factor even at seconds anyway you look at it when multiplied thru the work day;) everyone has a different perspective on this concept some like printing mona lisas and dont care of time and some dont print this elaborate and time is very important..
 

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Hey Josh,

How are things on the home front? I read you guys parted ways with the velocijet? Did you guys purchase a new unit yet, and if so what did you go with? regarding the 48xx machines Im sure there are ways to improve the speed i dont disagree at all, im just saying i have never seen this speed increase to be a dramatic difference and nothing incomparrison to the desktop speed IMHO .. I here alot about you can change the settings/production mode etc but i would guess this affects print qauility:) as the interweaving is done from within on the pro printers (hence a needed higher resolution to get the same coverage that a desktop is able to do in a lower resolution within the rip) I have seen alot of them in action and to me its like watching paint dry and im not singling out any brand its just the nature of the beast with all of them.. aa has a killer rip set up for theres but outside that i could not justify using one of the pro series due to print speed as the desktops will produce (as you know) Awesome prints with a good rip.. you will find it hard to locate a real time print vid on one of these units due to this fact, look for yourself and the ones you do find will speak volumes regarding MHO, besides its a discontinued model..:p Its true they give a great end result but what do you expect when you can catch a power nap while there printing a single full coverage/full print piece...get a chance give us some feed back on your new printer choice for your shop when you can, will be interesting to see what you guys choose for your new toy... we could all right a book on all this stuff with the current ink cost speed is the offsetting factor because high machine cost+high ink cost+slow print= hard road for ROI.. I do see machine cost starting to drop on the epson models and some of the new units like brother/m2/ moment-jet etc .. i think you will see more of this drop as new lower cost machines enter the market, as this is already starting with new units to be found in the 6-10,000 range:) they are getting better and better

Things are good Jeff very busy with screen printing at the moment :)

Okay I could write a book on my decision process but I'll try and keep it lite! We made the decision to only proceed with light garment printing, once we started using the light garment/poly pretreat results were very good, and we could print on practically any blend as long as it was light of course. This makes things much easier with an Epson based printer and has much more profit potential IMO. Its not that I wouldn't love to print with white, which we did become very competent at, but I wouldn't do it again unless I had a second machine as my white printer (DIY maybe), but that is down the road... Over the past couple years through experience and the good folks here at TSF, I've learned a lot. We budgeted for a used/refurbished machine. We researched around and ended up talking with Dan from DTGinks and purchased a refurbished flexi from him at a great price. Why a pro model, let me explain. If we are doing dual color the speed is still very good.. in line with the heat press. Bigger print area, great for lights as you can really offer a big print covering a great deal of the shirt. Built in high capacity ink system. No chips fooling the system or crazy reset process. Internally stronger, just take a look inside at the rails and you can tell its built to print and print. Dan is crazy knowledgeable on the machines and Belquette still supports and updates them. The flexi has been out for a long time it had design flaws and issues, but most have been corrected, and all the information is out there. The machines operation is very simplistic if you watch it operate, most things are based on timing. Printing in 720×720 you will do 12"×10" in just over a minute. So I'm guessing from timing about 2/3 longer than the desktop. I'm using DTGinks, I can't speak for white but the colors are Dupont quality as far as color, opacity, and wash-ability. I'm using a bulk ink system and my prints are ranging from $0.01 - $0.20, which I think is amazing. I'm still waiting for a bad nozzle check or some banding! All and all very happy with the decision, and Dan has been incredibly helpful!
 

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Discussion Starter · #4,150 ·
Things are good Jeff very busy with screen printing at the moment :)

Okay I could write a book on my decision process but I'll try and keep it lite! We made the decision to only proceed with light garment printing, once we started using the light garment/poly pretreat results were very good, and we could print on practically any blend as long as it was light of course. This makes things much easier with an Epson based printer and has much more profit potential IMO. Its not that I wouldn't love to print with white, which we did become very competent at, but I wouldn't do it again unless I had a second machine as my white printer (DIY maybe), but that is down the road... Over the past couple years through experience and the good folks here at TSF, I've learned a lot. We budgeted for a used/refurbished machine. We researched around and ended up talking with Dan from DTGinks and purchased a refurbished flexi from him at a great price. Why a pro model, let me explain. If we are doing dual color the speed is still very good.. in line with the heat press. Bigger print area, great for lights as you can really offer a big print covering a great deal of the shirt. Built in high capacity ink system. No chips fooling the system or crazy reset process. Internally stronger, just take a look inside at the rails and you can tell its built to print and print. Dan is crazy knowledgeable on the machines and Belquette still supports them like they were just out of warranty. The flexi has been out for a long time it had design flaws and issues, but they have been corrected and fixed, and all the information is out there. The machines operation is very simplistic if you watch it operate, most things are based on timing. Printing in 720×720 you will do 12"×10" in just over a minute. So I'm guessing from timing about 2/3 longer than the desktop. I'm using DTGinks, I can't speak for white but the colors are Dupont quality as far as color, opacity, and wash-ability. I'm using a bulk ink system and my prints are ranging from $0.01 - $0.20, which I think is amazing. I'm still waiting for a bad nozzle check or some banding! All and all very happy with the decision, and Dan has been incredibly helpful!
Glad to see you found a match for your biz model, i have never been a big fan of white ink printing with a low volume but if you have the work for it its no matter.. I agree 100% on a seperate machine for printing white this has alot of advantages..

your also correct on the ink resets but keep in mind you were running a 1900 base model epson? this model does not have a reset all to full chip avail and only reset one position/cart at a time and a few shirts latter you could be doing it again.. i think this is why most run the epsons with reset all to full chip which resets all carts to full with one reset and your printing time between resets is much longer the 2880 has a ratf chip.. same with 1100/1400/1800 and a few others.. you will still be resetting your carts with the 48xx you just have a larger volume of ink before doing so..

I look at these printers as having there own personality after there converted.. it depends on the build/hardware and electronics used how they act and how dependable they are. the epson in its stock form is nearly bullet proof its all the junk added that complicates the system especially with electronics and interfacing so that two seperate command units are talking to each other this is a hard task because there are so many errors that can happen that the new electronics are not capple of handling without shuting down restarting etc.. every epson based dtg is a diy i dont care what anyone says as they dont make the printer, some are more elaborate than others but there all diy's..I found keeping it as close as possible to its original design function will allow you to run and run with few issues.. you will be very surprized just using a low cost desktop diy with a good rip 'how easy the function is"
you will have to post some vids of your new toy when you get up to speed :)
 

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Glad to see you found a match for your biz model, i have never been a big fan of white ink printing with a low volume but if you have the work for it its no matter.. I agree 100% on a seperate machine for printing white this has alot of advantages..

your also correct on the ink resets but keep in mind you were running a 1900 base model epson? this model does not have a reset all to full chip avail and only reset one position/cart at a time and a few shirts latter you could be doing it again.. i think this is why most run the epsons with reset all to full chip which resets all carts to full with one reset and your printing time between resets is much longer the 2880 has a ratf chip.. same with 1100/1400/1800 and a few others.. you will still be resetting your carts with the 48xx you just have a larger volume of ink before doing so..

I look at these printers as having there own personality after there converted.. it depends on the build/hardware and electronics used how they act and how dependable they are. the epson in its stock form is nearly bullet proof its all the junk added that complicates the system especially with electronics and interfacing so that two seperate command units are talking to each other this is a hard task because there are so many errors that can happen that the new electronics are not capple of handling without shuting down restarting etc.. every epson based dtg is a diy i dont care what anyone says as they dont make the printer, some are more elaborate than others but there all diy's..I found keeping it as close as possible to its original design function will allow you to run and run with few issues.. you will be very surprized just using a low cost desktop diy with a good rip 'how easy the function is"
you will have to post some vids of your new toy when you get up to speed :)
I completely agree Jeff, the 1900 does have many issues that the others didn't suffer from. I believe you know the inner workings of the desktop models better than probably anyone out there, the designs and information you have put out there is amazing. I have no doubt that using all the existing Epson hardware in a build would make errors pretty much nonexistent. In saying that I think the Flexi and later the improved Neoflex have a great drive idea for moving the heavy printer around, is it perfect... most likely not, but it is one of the better systems I have seen. All in all I think Epson builds a fantastic, well designed printer, this is why they are so re-purposed for so many different projects in the first place
 

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Turbo Jet buys Rights to TDozer V1!!!! Some interesting news. I was buying some parts for my trusty Turbo Jet from John Kennedy an he dropped the news that he just bought the plans and rights to produce the T Dozer Version 1 everything but the name, the new name will be T Blazer or something like that. So Jeff if you are up and about whats the word on this news????
 

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Discussion Starter · #4,154 · (Edited)
Turbo Jet buys Rights to TDozer V1!!!! Some interesting news. I was buying some parts for my trusty Turbo Jet from John Kennedy an he dropped the news that he just bought the plans and rights to produce the T Dozer Version 1 everything but the name, the new name will be T Blazer or something like that. So Jeff if you are up and about whats the word on this news????

Randy,

I did transaction the original design to John, just the design itself.. He has had some interest in it and after reviewing its workings opted to go with the design for his new creation.. Its my understanding john intends to build a commercial unit based on it combined with his electronics.. Although i have not known john for a very long time i understand he has a deep history with dtg machines that i was unaware of, seems he is well versed in electronics.. The Design has proven itself to many already and a simple youtube search will dictate this, fitting it went to someone whom acknowledges its origin and potential....

@ John

thanks and i wish you success with your printer.. I appreciate your honest acknowledgement of the origin of the design.. again best of luck on your venture:)
 

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Well at least he acknowledged your work and investment of time and money. He could have just taken the clue book and public post and ran. Nice to see that if he is going to make money off of it vs a 1 off unit for personal use.
 
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