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Discussion Starter #1
user: corradormat mentioned in this thread:
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/screen-printing/t38387.html

"There hasn't been any talk recently from Matsui about when the underbase white might be released. I don't know if they are currently working on that or another solution to printing on darks with the Matsui water based inks without using discharge. I would love to see them develop something. Discharge is great but it's not exactly 100% "eco-friendly". But from what I understand, it's still better than plastisol ink."

Has Matsui come out with a decent white underbase system that keeps the top layers of water-based inks bright yet?

This question is directed at people who have used the latest Matsui underbase white and can say, "yes it works great" or "no it's still washed-out looking"...
 

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I love Matsui ink, but frankly they've dropped the ball on this. That's why I switched over to Permaset. They have a firstdown white that works really well with the standard colors.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I love Matsui ink, but frankly they've dropped the ball on this. That's why I switched over to Permaset. They have a firstdown white that works really well with the standard colors.
Hi Phillip, seems we've taken this chat from phone to email to forum lol
Referring to your suggestion, I downloaded the pricing pdf from www.armadilloart.com , however the pricing seems as high as other sites. For instance,

AQUA SUPERCOVER FIRST DOWN WHITE 1LT --- $45.95

Approximately 4 liters = 1 gallon.
That makes it --- $183.80 !!!

Compared to a gallon of 'Brite Cotton White' at www.screenprintingsupplies.com for $48.
Sizable difference.

How does one obtain a more reasonable price, (if there is one)?
 

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Hi Phillip, seems we've taken this chat from phone to email to forum lol
Referring to your suggestion, I downloaded the pricing pdf from www.armadilloart.com , however the pricing seems as high as other sites. For instance,

AQUA SUPERCOVER FIRST DOWN WHITE 1LT --- $45.95

Approximately 4 liters = 1 gallon.
That makes it --- $183.80 !!!

Compared to a gallon of 'Brite Cotton White' at www.screenprintingsupplies.com for $48.
Sizable difference.

How does one obtain a more reasonable price, (if there is one)?
I believe the 'Bright Cotton White' you are referring to is a plastisol ink made by Triangle and couldn't be used for underbasing a water based ink.

Matsui has released the newest version of their Pantone matching software which can be downloaded from here...Westix Online - Matsui Color Matching Software. Simply log into our website and the download is free.

This new version of the software includes formulas for their OW series and printing on a white underbase. We haven't yet tested the formulations...some colors might need some tweaking. This might be the most eco friendly solution for textile screen printing on darks to date.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I believe the 'Bright Cotton White' you are referring to is a plastisol ink made by Triangle and couldn't be used for underbasing a water based ink.

Matsui has released the newest version of their Pantone matching software which can be downloaded from here...Westix Online - Matsui Color Matching Software. Simply log into our website and the download is free.

This new version of the software includes formulas for their OW series and printing on a white underbase. We haven't yet tested the formulations...some colors might need some tweaking. This might be the most eco friendly solution for textile screen printing on darks to date.
Yeah, I was comparing the cost of Permaset to the cost of Plastisols. Permaset is GREAT because you don't have to discharge. You can use their 'first down white', flash, then lay down your wet on wets, for light inks on dark shirts. But their price is ASTRONOMICAL.

I'm very surprised there hasn't been more discussion about Permaset prices...

Mastui, I would love to use, but I read that their colors are muted and washed-out if printing over a white underbase.

And I don't want to use discharge, because of the formaldehyde and noxious fumes when heating to get that chemical reaction. I don't have a conveyer belt dryer with ventilation. I have a flash dryer and heat guns... and I'm working out of my bedroom... so no noxious fumes for me.

Matt, can you speak to that issue regarding Matsui please?

1) Muted/Washed-out/Pastel colors when printing over a white Matsui underbase.

How does Matsui compete against Permaset Aqua's nice 'first down white'?
 

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Yeah, I was comparing the cost of Permaset to the cost of Plastisols. Permaset is GREAT because you don't have to discharge. You can use their 'first down white', flash, then lay down your wet on wets, for light inks on dark shirts. But their price is ASTRONOMICAL.

No it isn't. You're just looking at retail pricing. You need to ask for trade pricing.
 

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I can't compare Permaset's inks to Matsui's because I have never printed with Permaset. But I have seen a comparison of the inks side by side and some of the permaset colors "seem" brighter and more vibrant than Matsui's but I'm not sure the camparison was done "apples to apples". I really want to conduct my own testing to see how they match up (now I just need about 36 hours in a day and I'll have that done this weekend!).

On a slightly different note, I am interested to hear about what people think about the permaset drying in the screen and other printability issues.

Hey Phillip, where do you get your permaset from? Is it a US distributor?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Hey Phillip, where do you get your permaset from? Is it a US distributor?
I can field that question. Permaset Aqua only has one distributer in the US. They are ArmadilloArt:

P.O. Box A
Belle Mead, NJ 08502 USA
Phone: (+1)-908-874-3315
Fax : (+1)-908-874-5433
http://www.armadilloart.com

Make sure you have the "www" in front of the url, or you'll arrive at their old site. If you're staring at a traditional paint palette set as the background, you've arrived at the right website.


Philip: Okay, re: 'trade pricing'. Certainly hoping for something more comparable to Matsui pricing, if not plastisol. I'm willing to pay more than plastisol for enviromentally-friendly products, but not over much so.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Okay, I just got ahold of the armadilloart's Permaset 'Trade Pricing' pdf.

Pricing for standard colors (semi-opaque) is very agreeable at about $50 per gallon. (actually sold as 4 liters, which is a little over a gallon) Their "first down white" which is the underbase necessary for printing lights on dark shirts, goes for about $80 per gallon.

("first down white" underbase has 'teeth' that standard or even opaque white doesn't have, 'teeth' that help the top layers of ink adhere to it.)

In fact, all Permaset's opaques, called "supercovers", are $80 to $100 per gallon. I'm not entirely sure why you would need anything more than a first down and then standards over that, but hope to find out.

Overall, I think this is acceptable pricing if I don't need the supercovers overmuch. With regard to printing on dark shirts, if I can use their 'first down white' underbase and standards over that, then no problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks for the tip, Mark.
I did a little price comparison shopping:

rexart.com --- 4 Liters - Black - OASP004303 $105.16
armadilloart.com --- AQUA JET BLACK 1LT (x4) - 9326602016395 $103.80

rexart.com --- 4 Liters - First Down White - OASP004303 $97.79
armadilloart.com --- AQUA SUPERCOVER FIRST DOWN WHITE 1LT (x4) - 9326602018054 - $183.80

rexart.com --- 4 Liters - Glow Blue - OASP029103 $167.47
armadilloart.com --- AQUA SUPERCOVER GLOW BLUE 1LT (x4) - 9326602018375 $295.80

When it comes to the specialty inks, glows/opaques/first-down, rexart.com is hands down the winner.
 

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Thanks for the tip, Mark.
I did a little price comparison shopping:

rexart.com --- 4 Liters - Black - OASP004303 $105.16
armadilloart.com --- AQUA JET BLACK 1LT (x4) - 9326602016395 $103.80

rexart.com --- 4 Liters - First Down White - OASP004303 $97.79
armadilloart.com --- AQUA SUPERCOVER FIRST DOWN WHITE 1LT (x4) - 9326602018054 - $183.80

rexart.com --- 4 Liters - Glow Blue - OASP029103 $167.47
armadilloart.com --- AQUA SUPERCOVER GLOW BLUE 1LT (x4) - 9326602018375 $295.80

When it comes to the specialty inks, glows/opaques/first-down, rexart.com is hands down the winner.
Nope. You're comparing apples to oranges. Armadillo doesn't publish their trade pricing on their website. You have to call.
 

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Actually, it's worse than that. I misquoted the supercover black.

Rexart.com --- Permaset Aqua Supercover Opaque Ink - Rex Art Supplies
see: 4 Liters - Black OASP004303 $105.16

Armadilloart.com --- trade pricing only available if you ask for it.
AQUA SUPERCOVER BLACK 1LT $49.95. Now multiply that by 4 to get 4 liters: $199.80 (!)

Check my figures, Phillip.
Actually, Armadillos trade price on 4 liters of SC Black is $94.17. You quoted the 1 liter price times 4. Smaller quantities always cost more. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Actually, Armadillos trade price on 4 liters of SC Black is $94.17. You quoted the 1 liter price times 4. Smaller quantities always cost more. :)
I don't see ArmadilloArt offer 4 liters anywhere on the trade pricing list they sent me... :(
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Phillip, you're absolutely correct. I still had the "public" price list. (!)
Thank you so much for pointing that out.
Going back to my first price comparisons:

Rexart.com --- 4 Liters - Black supercover $105.16
ArmadilloArt.com --- 4 Liters - Black supercover $94.17

Rexart.com --- 4 Liters - First Down White $97.79
ArmadilloArt.com --- 4 Liters - First Down White $87.57

Rexart.com --- 4 Liters - Glow Blue $167.47
ArmadilloArt.com --- 4 Liters - Glow Blue $149.97

www.ArmadilloArt.com wins this price contest.
 

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Cool. Glad we got that figured out.

Also, the regular colors are much less expensive and would be used for 90% of your work. I use them with an underbase on dark colors too. ;) I'm not even sure what the point of supercover black would be.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Cool. Glad we got that figured out.

Also, the regular colors are much less expensive and would be used for 90% of your work. I use them with an underbase on dark colors too. ;) I'm not even sure what the point of supercover black would be.
Excellent info. Thanks again.
To all: Phillip is a great guy; friendly & informative.
 

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Phillip, you're absolutely correct. I still had the "public" price list. (!)
Thank you so much for pointing that out.
Going back to my first price comparisons:

Rexart.com --- 4 Liters - Black supercover $105.16
ArmadilloArt.com --- 4 Liters - Black supercover $94.17

Rexart.com --- 4 Liters - First Down White $97.79
ArmadilloArt.com --- 4 Liters - First Down White $87.57

Rexart.com --- 4 Liters - Glow Blue $167.47
ArmadilloArt.com --- 4 Liters - Glow Blue $149.97

www.ArmadilloArt.com wins this price contest.
Ok Good to know I will have to call for the dealer pricing.
 
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