[easyrider1340]

First time using water based ink. Green Galaxy
White underbase - PF —> Red overprint ——> conveyor dryer

I ran shirts through dryer twice for back prints - white PFP (which survived the first wash) - but I believe that I must have forgotten to run through twice for the front prints.

Is this only an under curing problem? Could the white underbase have cured too much under the flash prior to overprinting red? Thus not allowing red to “grab” the white ink?

Give me your thoughts. Thanks!

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[MuddyWater]

I had this exact thing happen a couple years ago on a $3,000 order for a corporate client. It's absolutely a case of over flashing.

The problem is, especially with water-based ink, over a long run the platen heats up and the ink is curing on the platen before it even gets to the flash unit, so that you're over curing with the same dwell time after a while. The red ink just flat out isn't bonding to the white Our solution here was to either switch to using plastisol or discharge inks where it made sense to with things like performance/poly apparel or smaller prints, and slow WAY down and use the manual press, doing only 1 or 2 shirts on-press at a time so that the press operator could control it better. We ended up adding a $.25 and screen fee surcharge for underbasing with an addition $.10 for each additional color to account for the lost time and potential print failure. I've also heard of people skipping flashing altogether and just aiming a fan at the backside of the press before letting the shirt ride around, but that sounds kind of like it'd have the same possible issue.

Green Galaxy in particular seems to run into issues with this in my experience, and I haven't had issues with it since switching to Matsui's 301 white ( We still use GG's colors though just because they have the off-the-shelf colors for customers who aren't picky about their pantones or whatever. ). I don't know if it's that their pigment load is thinner or thicker in the white, the suspension component in the ink being quick-drying or what, but GG seems to dry faster and has a smaller window of tack than other water-based inks. It's a great benefit when you're just doing white prints because you can skip having to flash or cure multiple times and just let it ride around the press, but it definitely makes underbasing more of a challenge.

 

[easyrider1340]

Ugh ! That is not what I wanted to hear.

But thank you for sharing.

I was hoping to switch over to GG (and water base), but this might be a deal breaker. Just got in a fresh gallon of GG white too. SMH

I had this exact thing happen a couple years ago on a $3,000 order for a corporate client. It's absolutely a case of over flashing.

The problem is, especially with water-based ink, over a long run the platen heats up and the ink is curing on the platen before it even gets to the flash unit, so that you're over curing with the same dwell time after a while. The red ink just flat out isn't bonding to the white Our solution here was to either switch to using plastisol or discharge inks where it made sense to with things like performance/poly apparel or smaller prints, and slow WAY down and use the manual press, doing only 1 or 2 shirts on-press at a time so that the press operator could control it better. We ended up adding a $.25 and screen fee surcharge for underbasing with an addition $.10 for each additional color to account for the lost time and potential print failure. I've also heard of people skipping flashing altogether and just aiming a fan at the backside of the press before letting the shirt ride around, but that sounds kind of like it'd have the same possible issue.

Green Galaxy in particular seems to run into issues with this in my experience, and I haven't had issues with it since switching to Matsui's 301 white ( We still use GG's colors though just because they have the off-the-shelf colors for customers who aren't picky about their pantones or whatever. ). I don't know if it's that their pigment load is thinner or thicker in the white, the suspension component in the ink being quick-drying or what, but GG seems to dry faster and has a smaller window of tack than other water-based inks. It's a great benefit when you're just doing white prints because you can skip having to flash or cure multiple times and just let it ride around the press, but it definitely makes underbasing more of a challenge.

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[NoXid]

Cure the hell out of one of those shirts and see if you still get washout. That will tell you for sure what the cause is.

I cure with a heat press: 30 sec at ~330; lift to release steam for 5 sec or so; press for another 30 sec.

Comet White gets sticky/tacky when flashed and still hot. Don't mistake that for under flashing. The tackiness should go away as it cools. Helps to have a cooling station.

As to relative cure speed ... it takes more to cure GG than it does to cure Permaset.

 

[easyrider1340]

I ran them back through the dryer last night. Washed 1 and it survived. But still not sure if final curing is the issue or too much flash is the issue. I'll do another run of shirts this weekend as well as another wash test to see what happens.

I always touch the ink after flashing to ensure its not still wet. I also (generally) touch the ink before over printing to ensure it's cool. I don't feel that I printed anything over a hot shirt. I only flash for about 7-8 seconds - flash is about 3" roughly over pallet. Could it have happened, yes - but it's just not typical. I'm a hobbyist / garage printer, so never really in a hurry. I just enjoy printing shirts.

I do have a cheap heat press available, but I'd rather not add another element to the work.

Thanks for the feedback - appreciate the discussion.

Cure the hell out of one of those shirts and see if you still get washout. That will tell you for sure what the cause is.

I cure with a heat press: 30 sec at ~330; lift to release steam for 5 sec or so; press for another 30 sec.

Comet White gets sticky/tacky when flashed and still hot. Don't mistake that for under flashing. The tackiness should go away as it cools. Helps to have a cooling station.

As to relative cure speed ... it takes more to cure GG than it does to cure Permaset.

 

[MuddyWater]

Green Galaxy and water-based inks are absolutely worth the switch. They just have a few drawbacks and learning curve you learn to work around, like what you're dealing with while underbasing.

So far as curing the hell out of them, like NoXid said; definitely try that to see if it's the problem because that's the easier problem to fix, but chances are good that if it's a curing issue you're probably going to see the white failing at some point too. If it's a flash issue, you're more likely to see some survive washing and others fail on the top layer depending on when in the run you did them. GG red is particularly prone to this for whatever reason.

The ideal "tack" for Comet White should actually still be just a little bit warm and just barely tacky to touch. Not sticky or hot, but you don't want it cold and slick either. water-based ink starts over-curing a lot of times as it cools. When we flash water-based ink here, we typically use 200+ mesh with a Vastex F-100 unit, and the flash is about 6"-7" above the platen for only about 4-6 seconds. Air drying and heat from the platen's steel tend to take care of the rest.

 

[NoXid]

Hmmm, another random thought. Although I have used GG and underbased with it, and like it overall. I do prefer to use Permaset SuperCover inks. These are opaque water base inks that require no underbasing. You still may end up doing some PFP, especially for white ink on black shirts, but overall I prefer the end result and the workflow as compared to underbasing and top coating. The downsides are that SuperCover is $$$ and can be challenging to work with until you learn how to keep it properly hydrated. But the results are the best I have seen.

 

[easyrider1340]

I ended up buying a new (to me) conveyor dryer. Brown 2408. 4’ chamber 240v, 3 elements. I’m now curing the GG for 4mins at 330-340. I haven’t had an issue since.

I may be on a better path now. Appreciate all of the advice!


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[Inkslinger11]

Sounds like you need some Warp Drive. It's a low-cure-additive that is supposed to help with the curing issues that waterbase inks have. I just started printing with CCI's new T-Charge line of waterbase inks. Our first couple wash tests haven't gone very well, we're losing the spot colors just like you were. CCI has something called "Fixer" which helps with the ink adhesion and allegedly lowers the cure temp. I was wondering if you tried any of the GG version called Warp Drive?

 

[TABOB]

I just wrote something relative about DTG inks. https://www.t-shirtforums.com/texjet/t865165.html#post4392247
The same apply for water-based inks. The guidelines are just what the word implies "guidelines". Temperature and curing method will increase or decrease the curing time.


The problem you have is definitely weak bonding between layers. A heat press will always produce better and faster results. A little pressure does help bond the layers together.

 

[easyrider1340]

Sounds like you need some Warp Drive. It's a low-cure-additive that is supposed to help with the curing issues that waterbase inks have. I just started printing with CCI's new T-Charge line of waterbase inks. Our first couple wash tests haven't gone very well, we're losing the spot colors just like you were. CCI has something called "Fixer" which helps with the ink adhesion and allegedly lowers the cure temp. I was wondering if you tried any of the GG version called Warp Drive?

Just to follow up, I believe my issues were related to curing. I haven’t had the issue since getting the forced air dryer.

I just did a job using Warp Drive additive, and wash test proved a good cure on 100% poly Sport-Tek shirts. No migration.


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