Forgot to mention, we're print/flash/print/flashing the white, and it looks great until it goes through the dryer.
Is there a waterbased white that is low-bleed for dark 50/50 shirts?
Hey, guys! We're in trouble! We're printing our first major job, finally worked out the bugs, but the customer switched to 50/50 cotton/polyester shirts, and we're having dye migration with our white underbase. We're using Permaset First Down White through a 110 mesh on black Port & Co. shirts. Looks great on cotton or pellons, but turns gray after curing on the 50/50, so I'm sure it's dye migration. Is there another white that we can buy to get us going? I was interested in Ryonet's Comet White, but it sounds like it's going to have the same problem, I think. How about Matsui 301? Anybody print that on black 50/50 with luck? Any help is appreciated, the customer wants his shirts! Thanks!
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Dye migration starts from 300. Can you lower the temp to 250 / 280 and still dry your WB ink?
Also, put all the shirts through at 325 first to try and induce early sublimation, so there is less dye to go into your ink when you cure
Also, put all the shirts through at 325 first to try and induce early sublimation, so there is less dye to go into your ink when you cure
Thanks for the tips! Unfortunately, I'm not sure we can get by with lowering the temp, as I tried cooking one less a while back and it didn't pass the wash test. Also, I've notice that we have to flash it pretty good to keep the white from sticking to the other screens, so I'll bet that by the time they're flashed enough, the sublimation has already started. I was just looking at Matsui's Under Coat and wondering if that might be a solution?
Matsui makes a bleed blocker for waterbased inks. It's a black underbase of some kind.
Thanks, Tom! I think I might try going that route, I just hate to have to add another screen to the job. I was looking today at the Green Galaxy Comet White again, and it says you can use it on cotton/poly if you add a "compatible low-cure catalyst." Trouble is, how do I know what's compatible? Sent them an email, hoping they reply. If I don't hear anything in a couple of days, I think I'll try the Matsui undercoat stuff. I'm going to play around with the heat, too, and try to find a magic window where it cures, but doesn't migrate. Kinda got my doubts that'll work, but it would be nice if it did!
Andy did you ever figure out the dye migration. I use only Green Galaxy inks and I am printing my first 50/50 shirts and I got an additive from Ryonet called warp drive that lowers the cure point to 270-280. I know this post is old but maybe it can help someone else.Thanks, Tom! I think I might try going that route, I just hate to have to add another screen to the job. I was looking today at the Green Galaxy Comet White again, and it says you can use it on cotton/poly if you add a "compatible low-cure catalyst." Trouble is, how do I know what's compatible? Sent them an email, hoping they reply. If I don't hear anything in a couple of days, I think I'll try the Matsui undercoat stuff. I'm going to play around with the heat, too, and try to find a magic window where it cures, but doesn't migrate. Kinda got my doubts that'll work, but it would be nice if it did!
You can also use PermaSet inks. The Standard Aqua and Supercover Aqua work great on 50/50, etc with no bleed out of the bucket, and no additives needed. Supercover is more expensive though, but the way it covers on dark garments makes it worth the extra $$$. To me at least.
Hi Andy
Is waterbase your only option? just curious, you can get good results with low cure plastisol like 7100 series from International coatings - they also have a low cure additive. If you still want to pursue waterbase then yes Matsui makes some alternatives. Hope that helps - we do test printing here so I will do some research prints and let you know - good luck & hope that helps !~
Is waterbase your only option? just curious, you can get good results with low cure plastisol like 7100 series from International coatings - they also have a low cure additive. If you still want to pursue waterbase then yes Matsui makes some alternatives. Hope that helps - we do test printing here so I will do some research prints and let you know - good luck & hope that helps !~
Hi, guys! Yep, this is an old thread, and we've done some different stuff since then. Right after I first posted, I ended up going with Matsui Undercoat Binder, with Green Galaxy white on top of that, and had no problems, except for fighting dry-in in our hot, dry climate. Later in the year, we bought a plastisol setup that's worked well, too. But when I first posted, we were using Permaset Supercover First-Down white, and just getting started. Porkchopharry, you say you're using the same stuff with no migration. That makes me think that I probably had the dryer set way too hot in the first place, and maybe I could've gotten by with lowering the temp and skipping the undercoat binder? Macman, I've been curious about the Warp Drive as well. It wasn't available yet when I first posted this, but we almost switched to it later. The only reason I didn't was that it needs to be added to all the colors in the job, and as a five-color job, I hated to mix up that much ink that might set up on me too quickly.
Hey,
Yep I use the PermaSet Supercover straight out of the bucket with no migration - according to their literature, it's meant to work that way. And you're right, you want to lower the heat a tick, and just let it dwell a tad longer.
I do a lot of AA baseball 50/50 raglans - black body w/white sleeves. When it comes time to cure them, I just raise the heating element on my dryer 1/2" to 1" and slow the belt a small bit.
I can cure the regular 100% PermaSet prints at about 350-360 degrees for 90 seconds with no issue. If you try to cure the dark poly or 50/50, etc any higher than 340-350, you're gonna get migration. The hotter it gets, the more migration. I've accidentally gotten some up to like 370 when I wasn't paying attention and white can turn to grey. So I shoot for closer to 320-330-ish. A "little bit" higher seems to be ok.
Another thing you can do, is hit the print one more time with another pass. This helps "seal it in" and I've not noticed it adding any more hand to the print really (especially on the 50/50). And any extra hand is gone after a wash or two anyway in my experience.
I prefer however, to just raise the heat element and slow the belt a touch. Or you can experiment with a combo of lower heat and extra hit.
Yep I use the PermaSet Supercover straight out of the bucket with no migration - according to their literature, it's meant to work that way. And you're right, you want to lower the heat a tick, and just let it dwell a tad longer.
I do a lot of AA baseball 50/50 raglans - black body w/white sleeves. When it comes time to cure them, I just raise the heating element on my dryer 1/2" to 1" and slow the belt a small bit.
I can cure the regular 100% PermaSet prints at about 350-360 degrees for 90 seconds with no issue. If you try to cure the dark poly or 50/50, etc any higher than 340-350, you're gonna get migration. The hotter it gets, the more migration. I've accidentally gotten some up to like 370 when I wasn't paying attention and white can turn to grey. So I shoot for closer to 320-330-ish. A "little bit" higher seems to be ok.
Another thing you can do, is hit the print one more time with another pass. This helps "seal it in" and I've not noticed it adding any more hand to the print really (especially on the 50/50). And any extra hand is gone after a wash or two anyway in my experience.
I prefer however, to just raise the heat element and slow the belt a touch. Or you can experiment with a combo of lower heat and extra hit.
Porkchopharry,
Thanks for taking the time to fill me in on your experience with Permaset! That's especially interesting to me, because of the various whites I've tried, I liked the final finish of Permaset the best. I'd like to give it another try with a closer eye on my temps. I also think we might've been overflashing them at first, which would make it worse. One of the biggest reasons we quit using it, though, was we couldn't find a convenient place to get it from out here in the west. I see you're in California, and we get stuff out of California sometimes, do you mind telling us where you buy your Permaset from?
Thanks for taking the time to fill me in on your experience with Permaset! That's especially interesting to me, because of the various whites I've tried, I liked the final finish of Permaset the best. I'd like to give it another try with a closer eye on my temps. I also think we might've been overflashing them at first, which would make it worse. One of the biggest reasons we quit using it, though, was we couldn't find a convenient place to get it from out here in the west. I see you're in California, and we get stuff out of California sometimes, do you mind telling us where you buy your Permaset from?
Andy (I'm an Andy too), and/or Tobie,
I also find Permaset to have the best hand and finish. Nice and crisp.
Only downer is the price I suppose. It's pretty much the same price everywhere I guess though. At least i have found.
Two places I get it are McLogans, which I have one of down the street basically, and also at the buypermasetinks.com site. You can email either place a copy of your reseller's permit also for tax reasons if you need to. McLogan's has a lower threshold for free shipping. I find both places ship it quickly.
Another thing you can do is mix the Aqua Supercover ink with the Standard Aqua ink to create colors and you can save a decent amount of money that way. It will cover just as well on dark garments I have found. For instance, mixing Supercover white with regular Permaset Aqua black will give you a great grey that covers great on black tees, etc.
I also find Permaset to have the best hand and finish. Nice and crisp.
Only downer is the price I suppose. It's pretty much the same price everywhere I guess though. At least i have found.
Two places I get it are McLogans, which I have one of down the street basically, and also at the buypermasetinks.com site. You can email either place a copy of your reseller's permit also for tax reasons if you need to. McLogan's has a lower threshold for free shipping. I find both places ship it quickly.
Another thing you can do is mix the Aqua Supercover ink with the Standard Aqua ink to create colors and you can save a decent amount of money that way. It will cover just as well on dark garments I have found. For instance, mixing Supercover white with regular Permaset Aqua black will give you a great grey that covers great on black tees, etc.
Thanks Andy, I appreciate the info! I'll have to give Permaset another try. I've also been wanting to try doing some flatstock printing with the regular Aqua. Good times ahead!
-Another Andy
-Another Andy
Give it a whirl and let me know what you think. I personally like PS the best.
I DO use the Green Galaxy comet white on dark hoodies a lot and it does well. Just not the same as PS IMHO.
I was sort of hoping that the GG would have been available in a lot more high opacity colors when they released new colors awhile back. But that didn't happen, and I find that puzzling sort of. If they offered more HO colors, I'd definitely give them a try.
The one thing that I find with the GG inks, is that they seem to be some type of hybrid ink to me at least. I know I've said that a million times here, but it still intrigues me. There's just "something" about the final cure that makes me wonder. It's like a plastisol-ish finish to the print when you run your hand over it. It's real soft though, and works well for hoodies.
Can't really put my finger on it. I dunno if a "hybrid" ink even exists - just my conspiracy theory kicking in I guess. But I thought I saw a International Coatings (?) ink that was water-based in feel, but not really water-based before. I wonder if it's some play on that?
And I'm rambling again....
I DO use the Green Galaxy comet white on dark hoodies a lot and it does well. Just not the same as PS IMHO.
I was sort of hoping that the GG would have been available in a lot more high opacity colors when they released new colors awhile back. But that didn't happen, and I find that puzzling sort of. If they offered more HO colors, I'd definitely give them a try.
The one thing that I find with the GG inks, is that they seem to be some type of hybrid ink to me at least. I know I've said that a million times here, but it still intrigues me. There's just "something" about the final cure that makes me wonder. It's like a plastisol-ish finish to the print when you run your hand over it. It's real soft though, and works well for hoodies.
Can't really put my finger on it. I dunno if a "hybrid" ink even exists - just my conspiracy theory kicking in I guess. But I thought I saw a International Coatings (?) ink that was water-based in feel, but not really water-based before. I wonder if it's some play on that?
And I'm rambling again....
So I am wondering, if you could mix the Supercover white with other regular Permaset colors and still get good opacity on darks, then couldn't you mix any of the Supercover colors with the same regular color to sort of get a blend of the benefits and the price?
So I am wondering, if you could mix the Supercover white with other regular Permaset colors and still get good opacity on darks, then couldn't you mix any of the Supercover colors with the same regular color to sort of get a blend of the benefits and the price?
Yeah, you sure could! I'm actually pondering getting a gallon of regular white and mixing it with a gallon of Supercover white.
DISCLAIMER though: I'm not exactly where the tipping point in that mixing is. Like when you add TOO much regular to the Supercover. Maybe there isn't a tipping point. But, there's a tipping point when it comes to adding water to it. So, best to do in small batches until you get it down.
I do my mixes in quarts right now. So like pink and grey, etc I mix into quart containers.
When you mix the colors/inks you want to stir like hell though. I slacked once and my prints looked sort of marbled in color. Lesson learned!
I saw someone else who was using 25% regular and 75% SuperCover with good results ... but not sure if that was someone on here or not ...
I'm going to try it with their Mid Yellow.
McLogan's seems to have a slightly better price, but they only carry quarts and gallons, and only SuperCover. Shipping is free over a certain $ amount, and they carry all sorts of screen printing equipment and supplies, if you are looking to round out the order with something other than ink. Also, the shipping cost is pretty reasonable even if you don't reach the free shipping level.
Buypermasetinks.com has all sizes and both types, but the shipping is more (though I am all the way across the country from them).
I'm going to try it with their Mid Yellow.
McLogan's seems to have a slightly better price, but they only carry quarts and gallons, and only SuperCover. Shipping is free over a certain $ amount, and they carry all sorts of screen printing equipment and supplies, if you are looking to round out the order with something other than ink. Also, the shipping cost is pretty reasonable even if you don't reach the free shipping level.
Buypermasetinks.com has all sizes and both types, but the shipping is more (though I am all the way across the country from them).
buypermaset has free shipping at the $300 threshold I believe.
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