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Yes, the rubberize inks seems to be one thing that contribute to the differences of our inks. Although other brand of wetlook/superwhite that are not rubberize ink have low viscosity too. Or maybe they're just not sold as rubberize.So how are your high opacity waterbase inks?

On transparent inks, I'll try taking some video of process waterbase inks. Maybe I also took the words watery and runny too literally.
 

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I fell off this thread. Angel, it does sound like you are using one of the water based inks that behave more like plastisol when printed but clean up like the water based inks I mention. When I talk of water based and discharge inks (i don't believe discharge applies, or is used, when printing with the acrylic based and rubberized water based inks) I am speaking of completely different inks. The acrylic and rubberized inks behave somewhat like plastisol on press, where the inks we are printing result in absolutely no hand at all, we are essentially redying the fibers in the garments rather than printing ink on top of the fabric surface. Alan's posts are very helpful.
 

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That is what I want to understand more, the differences in the waterbase inks we are using.

When you said, "When I talk of water based ...I am speaking of completely different inks." what inks are you referring to or what brand?

Just for reference, these are not rubberize ink but CMYK process inks sold under the aquasoft label here.

Source: TULCO Aquasoft Textile Ink

This is a white underbase for process colors. See under AVAILABLE BASE in the above link. Even ater 10 seconds in inverted position, the ink does not show signs of falling out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCufLIQw0Xg&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

This is a process yellow. Also thick bodied.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKlgrBKjzsc

This is a process black. It is much more viscous and will fall out of the container if inverted for a few seconds. Still not watery.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEESyI9faN0
 

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I would like to thank Alan, Dan, and Richard for your patience in answering my questions and in explaining the curing characteristic of the inks you use. I would also like to thank Bill Hood who took time to help answer my questions. Here is an excerpt:

Tulco distributes inks that are formulated using chemicals from Dianippon, who is a world leader in the manufacturing of colorants and chemicals for the textile industry.

The confusion may be interpretation. These are two different inks, one(WETLOOK or CLEAR or NEUTRAL) being transparent, acrylic ink and the other(SUPERWHITE or WHITE) an opaque ink that does not appear to be an acrylic. They must be formulated different to achieve the transparency and/or opaqueness. This is a fact that must be of concern. Dianippon states on their website that users should avoid intermixing and overlapping different ink series. This statement alone should warn you that the inks are not the same, nor or they compatible.

The ingredient that makes these ink cure at a much lower temperature is the acrylic resins and rubber, both of which cure/bind at a lower temperature in comparison to other resins. Acrylic resins and rubber are available in a wide range of melting points.
.

It is now evident that the waterbase inks we use here are different than the waterbase used in the US and in some other countries. It seems that the faster curing(and faster clogging) inks found a market here as many printers use line table system where clogging problems would be less. The longer curing inks you have is better suited for the rotary or carousel press common in the US.

Your inks also have a different formulation combining the features of an opaque ink (superwhite) and a transparent ink (wetlook) whereas we, either due to our cheaper labor costs or to keep the price of inks here lower, have to mix them. I am not really sure about the later though.
 

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Another thing that constantly bafflers me is the use of a fixer or fixing agent(A self curing additive that allows the inks to cure within 72 hours without heat curing. Although heat is not required, curing at 150ºC for 15 seconds or more will result in a reduced setting time) TULCO Auxiliaries and Supplies

Heat setting comes before curing so what could that reduced setting time be?

It is very common for suppliers to "advice" adding fixers because, according to them, aside from "without heat curing" it will also increase washing/color fastness. That even properly cured inks will fade more when no fixers are added(compared to prints with fixers).

Considering that inks mixed with fixers has to be used within 4-8 hours or they'll go sour or harden it is not difficult to imagine how much more sales are derived from the sales of fixers and inks to make up for the spoiled inks.

I am not using fixers. I have not been using fixers for almost a year now. Still, I would like to know your views. I am not sure if fixers are available in the US but thought that people in other countried would likle to hear your views on the use of fixers.
 

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Firstly I have not been using fixers for quite some time now but I make sure that I fully cure the ink. Adds to the electric bill though. But I used to use fixers and for most waterbase printers here, fixers is a way of life. Even if not properly cured, inks without fixers do fade must faster than inks with fixers. So to a certain degree, it is true and not just marketing gimmick. And this is why many printers swear by them. But when some suppliers say that even fully cured inks without fixers will fade faster, I think that is marketing gimmick.

Suppliers/manufacturers do have a vested interested in the use of fixers. That means additional sales and more ink spoilage due to the short shelf life of inks with fixers.

2nd, manufacturers do not add fixers to inks because inks with fixers have a shelf life of only 4-8 hours.

Lastly, the best method is not necessarily the cheapest method. For printers, I think that adding fixer and throwing away spoiled inks is still cheaper than cost of electricity from fully curing shirts. But I am not a volume printer and uses inks that costs about 3-4x more than regular waterbase inks. So, if I use fixers, I'd be throwing away much more inks

I hope I don't sound like contradicting myself. One thing I would really like to know is why fixers are not popular in other countries is why? I have some of the answers but something is still missing.

Thanks for sharing Bob.
 

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I am also using tulco brands and had the same problem. I used tulco superwhite with fixer as under based and on top of it are the colors. I also cured it as referred by the vendor. Then my client called me and said that the prints washed out, some complete and some partially washes out. I was really frustrated looking for answers. But every one says different thing. Some say its the curing, some say inks, etc..

I think it everyone must experiment on his own, try to do some of the advises and pick the one that answers your problem. We are all learning anyway. Be generous in giving help.
 

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If you are using tulco inks specifically a white underbase with fixer, and assuming that you are curing them at the right temp and the right amount of time, then there are 2 likely possibilities

1) You are using an ink that belongs to a different series for the top coat. For example, your superwhite underbase is RC (local) and your top coat superwhite is SH(Japan). Or

2) Your top coat has the same series as your underbase but is a "wetlook" base. Superwhites and wetlook inks are actually different inks even if they have the same series or are of the same brand. You need to add wetlook inks to the underbase and for the top coat wetlook to stick. Usually, the underbase has a greater mix of superwhite and the top coats have a greater mix of wetlook
 

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Some very good info in this thread.

inks:
We are currently using the Sericol Texcharge system for our water based printing. I have heard that the Rutand pigments are much more vibrant than the Sericol inks. Is this true?

We mostly use this system for its ease to work with and hit pantones.

off-contact and build-up:
What do you do to limit the build-up on large runs? We like to keep our off-contact as low as possible to maximize penetration into the garment. I feel the low off contact is causing more build-up. Anyone else have this issue? Or better yet, a remedy?

We are running S mesh at 28-32 newtons.

TIA
 

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Might be the ink system, have not had this issue on other discharge products. However try spraying 3M silicone, or Albatross Silicone on the bottom of all screens before print. It wears off after awhile and needs to be reapplied. Typically though the discharge inks from Jantex and Matsui will not build up.
 

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I am also using Tulco Printing Inks.

I print multiple layers of ink in one shirt (dark colored school uniform). My worries comes when I delivered the shirts improperly cured, not even ironed. In two weeks time, I asked the personnel in-charge of the t-shirt
distribution if the shirts fade or ink might broke off the shirt - it didn't was-out. The personnel also told me that after washing, the colors look brighter than the newly delivered shirts.

The ink (Tulco RC Series) contains 30% Wetlook (Rubberize) + 70% Superwhite (Rubberize) + 3% Fixer UR + Pigment (colorant). I use to mix the Fixer UR in a container with 1 kilo of mixed Superwhite and Wetlook (used above ratio) to be used for several days of printing. I think the Fixer UR did not spoil the ink.
 

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You posted that question in the above thread(linked).

I have no problems with plastisol on 230 mesh although I do not use AA shirts. I do not think the shirt is the problem though.

How heavy is heavy???

I do not like to add additives to inks but I often add about 10% soft hand extender and sopmetimes about 10% reducer.

Could you be pushing (or pulling) the squeegee too hard? Is your squeegee corners sharp? You can try run your squeegee through your arm and feel the corners. Are you using the correct squeegee angle?
 

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Can you tell me what is discharge ink?
Think of it as bleach. It's not ink, although you can mix it with ink to do single pass printing.

Basically, you screen print discharge on a dark garment and the discharge 'bleaches' the area white. You can leave it like that if that's the look you're going for, or add other colors using additional screens.
 

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Waterbased inks partially penetrate the fabric and partially lay pigments on top a fabric to give color. Plastisol inks is laid on top of the fabric hence a heavier hand.

In contrast, discharge inks contain either formaldehyde or some other chemicals to bleach the image. During the curing process, the dye in the fabric is removed(bleached). The bleached image can either be the final image or sometimes, colored pigment is added to the discharge ink to "colorize" the bleached area.
 

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I would advise avoiding discharge inks that are not fermaldyhyde free. The technology has moved forward and these old style discharge agents are unnecessarily dangerous unless some hefty precautions are in place. Just ask your supplier if it off gasses anything dangerous and also keep the MSDS sheets for your records.

Just my two cents. Toss them in a well and make a wish.
 

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Hi Im a total newbie to t shirt printing, Ive done some light on dark and wasnt very impressed with speedball coverage......
2 questions, is permaset super cover much stronger than speedball ink? and could it be possible in theory to add a speedball colour to ie red to a permaset white to make a pink... ? has anyone ever mixed brands of waterbased inks? i mean it works when Im painting with acrylics so...... thanks for any help would be really cool

arfling
 
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