Inspired by text based shirt - where's the line?

2528 Views 16 Replies 9 Participants Last post by Solmu, Aug 8, 2010

Jsapata

Discussion Starter · Aug 3, 2010

I wasn't sure where to put this thread, so please move to a more appropriate section if needed...

I was in church and saw a person wearing a shirt with a very short phrase that would be awesome (in my opinion) if it were used in a religious context. It would require changing 1 of the words to suit this need.

I looked for the original shirt online and found a company in LA that is making them. I have considered contacting them to see how they would feel about me spinning their shirt into one of my own.

How does everyone else feel about this?

There is no logo to copy or spoof. Just text.
If it were you:

Would you just do it without contacting the people selling the other shirt?

Contact them and see how they feel about?

Pass on the idea all together because it is not 100 percent original?

Or?

If you were the other company and your target market was/appears to be completely different how would you feel about a similar shirt being sold/marketed?

How would you feel about somebody being inspired by your shirt and asking permission to create a similar one of thier own?

Thanks

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

chinoquinteros

· #2 · Aug 4, 2010

I don't see where there may be a problem, by you changing that one word it becomes your idea, your frase, and I don't see you breaking any ethic rules either, so go for it.

BIGRICH74

· #3 · Aug 4, 2010

Go for it. Once you change it ,whether big or small, it becomes your original. Sooooo many people out there are doing it.

Rodney

· #4 · Aug 4, 2010

BIGRICH74 said:
Go for it. Once you change it ,whether big or small, it becomes your original. Sooooo many people out there are doing it.

chinoquintero said:
by you changing that one word it becomes your idea, your frase

Actually, that is not correct. Just because you change something doesn't make it your idea.

Jspata said:
where's the line

To the question of "where's the line", you could start with a legal line like a trademark.

General phrases can't be copyrighted, but they can be trademarked if they are shown to be part of a brand.

So if the phrase you saw on a t-shirt is a registered trademark and you tried to change a word and put it on t-shirts, it's possible you could get sued from the trademark owner if they felt there was enough confusion between your two products.

The problem with designing and selling t-shirts that are close to "the line" is that YOUR line might be different than the intellectual property owners line or their LAWYERS line.

I would first check for registered trademarks on the phrase.

Be careful about taking legal advice from a public forum. Well meaning members may suggest you do things that could get you sued and cost you a lot of money.

If you're in doubt, the best thing to do is to ask for paid legal advice from an attorney or pick a different idea.

See less See more

Jsapata

Discussion Starter · #5 · Aug 4, 2010

Checked my phrase - no entries.

Googled my phrase - less than 10 hits.

Checked phrase I saw - multiple dead entries. 1 live entry for music downloads? Dead entry for clothing company.

Googled phrase I saw - 30K hits. A rap song and a website using the phrase as their URL but not the same company that is selling the printed shirts with the phrase. How does that play out exactly?

The phrase as printed on the shirt I have seen is a popularly used slang that shows up in the "Urban dictionary." I am certain the phrase on the shirt has been used in the dialogue of multiple movies featuring a specific life style usually involving gangs...

Can anyone point me to a trademark attorney and tell me how many hours I might expect to be charged for a consult?

mads

· #6 · Aug 4, 2010

This quote always spoke to me:

“Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don’t bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: It’s not where you take things from - it’s where you take them to.” — Jim Jarmusch

Rodney

· #7 · Aug 6, 2010

mads said:
This quote always spoke to me:

“Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don’t bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: It’s not where you take things from - it’s where you take them to.” — Jim Jarmusch

I'm not sure that helps the original poster with his legal issues.

It seems like an interesting philosophy, but also one that could possibly cause some legal problems down the line.

mads

· #8 · Aug 6, 2010

Rodney said:
I'm not sure that helps the original poster with his legal issues.

It seems like an interesting philosophy, but also one that could possibly cause some legal problems down the line.

Not if it's just a piece of text that has few results when you Google it. Slogans are hard to copyright (and enforce) compared to graphics, and if it's a common saying it can't be copyrighted. Had it been a logo I would not have posted the quote. It applies more to art than design, but I thought it was fitting.

Rodney

· #9 · Aug 6, 2010

Jsapata said:
Can anyone point me to a trademark attorney and tell me how many hours I might expect to be charged for a consult?

Here's a couple that you can contact. Only they will be able to tell you whether they can give free consultations or estimates based on your needs. I haven't used either of them, just passing on lines that I found in another forum:

SonnabendLaw

Federal Trademark Filing & Registration Applications | How to File & Register a Trademark Application Form

Reactions: 1

kimura-mma

· #10 · Aug 6, 2010

mads said:
Not if it's just a piece of text that has few results when you Google it.

Google results are not a good indicator at all for determining intellectual property. The US Copyright Office website should be searched for copyrights and the US Trademark Office should be searched for trademarks.

mads said:
Slogans are hard to copyright (and enforce) compared to graphics, and if it's a common saying it can't be copyrighted.

Graphics and designs are eligible for copyright. But slogans are eligible for trademark.

Slogans are considered hard to register as a trademark for use on clothing if it is only used on a few products within a clothing line. But if the slogan is a brand name or used as part of the overall branding and marketing, it can be registered.

BroJames

· #11 · Aug 6, 2010

Why not try post your phrase and maybe others can give you a better opinion. I don't think people will steal them or let's say they will, there is no stopping them later.

Rodney

· #12 · Aug 6, 2010

BroJames said:
Why not try post your phrase and maybe others can give you a better opinion. I don't think people will steal them or let's say they will, there is no stopping them later.

It's actually best NOT to post the phrase in a public forum. It's not only read by forum members, it's also indexed by Google and many other people read the information posted.

Reactions: 1

BroJames

· #13 · Aug 7, 2010

I guess that would be the safest if you think big.

freebird1963

· #14 · Aug 8, 2010

Kinda funny and sad.
Wants to take a phrase seen on a shirt already made and change one word to sell but yet its best not to post cuz it might get stolen or might be indexed to be googled at a later date for a possible C&D or lawsuit or legal action.

Sad and funny as hell at the same time.
What a great time to be living in

So whadda think. ? Has the advent and growth of the internet INCREASED infringments of copyrights and trademarks or decreased them and helped companies fight these infringements. ?

I think the first.

Good Luck
Mark

BroJames

· #15 · Aug 8, 2010

freebird1963 said:
. . ..

So whadda think. ? Has the advent and growth of the internet INCREASED infringments of copyrights and trademarks or decreased them and helped companies fight these infringements. ?

I think the first.

Good Luck
Mark

Maybe more or maybe less. Maybe almost the same if we reduce the figures into percentages. I would love to know though. But I think it would be correct to say that the internet makes it easier and faster to "infringe"

Jsapata

Discussion Starter · #16 · Aug 8, 2010 (Edited)

Tim,

I did search the Trademark data base for both. That what I posted just above the Google results for both phrases. No results for the phrase I would like to use. Only one result that is "live" for the phrase I saw, it is for music downloads or something. There is a dead result for the phrase I saw under apparel.

Mark

I know where you are coming from I asked for leads to legal counsel once I saw how the answers were going. It isn't going to be an issue. I thought people in the forums might have had experience from either/both sides of this situation and I wanted to see how they felt about it.

As far as the phrase

Hypothetically the phrase I saw is - I hate clowns
My hypothetical phrase is - I hate Sundays

So in your opinion Mark, is this an example of infringement you are concerned the internet is helping increase? More importantly, how would you feel about using "I hate Sunday's" after you saw "I hate clowns" or if you saw "I hate Sunday's" on a shirt if you were the one using "I hate clowns?" That is the information I was really looking for with my question before it went and got all legal like.

See less See more

Solmu

· #17 · Aug 8, 2010

Jsapata said:
So in your opinion Mark, is this an example of infringement you are concerned the internet is helping increase? More importantly, how would you feel about using "I hate Sunday's" after you saw "I hate clowns" or if you saw "I hate Sunday's" on a shirt if you were the one using "I hate clowns?" That is the information I was really looking for with my question before it went and got all legal like.

The problem is it's very hard to provide an example without providing the example. I fully understand, and support, not being specific. But without being specific... what can we really help you with? Except vague advice on the law itself.

In the example you gave, I would say that the phrase is a mere expression of an internal sentiment with nothing unique about it, and that no protection is possible if the sentiment reflected a different subject.

Except that that's not true.

Flip hate to love.

"I heart NY" "I heart NJ".

Exactly the same as your example really. And a great example of an overreaching trademark that has successfully crushed other people for having the audacity to love things.

"Life is good" vs. "Life is bad". Could be a parody. Could be a clear infringement. Who knows how that's going to go? Depends on, amongst other things, what they do with it.

Generalities aren't useful.

In general, we can say your phrase might be "confusingly similar" or it might not be.

And I'm not just talking from a legal standpoint. I mean in general, if the phrase "I hate clowns" inspired you to think "You know what I hate? Cheese!" and start a site devoted to hating cheese... I would say no problem (except with your tastebuds).

But if "I hate clowns" became "I hate Daniel Clowes", I'm not so sure.

An opinion on a hypothetical example is worth next to nothing.

If someone ripped off my work in a way I noticed, I'd be upset. If it was just in a similar vein, so what? I have no idea which of the two your idea is.

See less See more

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.