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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello, I feel so lucky to have found this site. Many of my questions have been answered but I still need some feedback on my situation. I'm also not sure that I'm entering my message in the right place??? But here goes:
I am more into the business end of things and my partner creates slogans. We would like to start a business whereby we could sell our products (tee shirts, pet wear, mugs, etc) using our slogans. We want to sell to upscale boutiques, hotel gift shops, college students, political venues. I know that sounds like a wide range but we have slogans to fit each group.
We will outsource our printing.
I feel that we couldn't sell a Gildan 2000 shirt to an upscale boutique without re-labeling but we probably could sell the gildan label to a college student.
I want to take it slow and do some indoor flea markets to test the slogans but my partner doesn't want to do this. We don't have a lot of money. He only wants to make an initial investment of $2500.00 which I would have to match. I don't think that is enough.
I would like to do the markets because I'm in need of extra cash NOW! He also would like to make some extra cash but I have tried to tell him that selling to stores is going to be a lengthy process and we can't afford to go to trade shows.
We have already been to the attorney for trademarking and copyrighting which will cost $2200.00. (we have 3 trademark filings and one comprehensive copyright for slogans).
We can put together a catalog for not a lot of money. I don't know if we should just take a few shirts and hit the road calling on buyers. Does that make us appear to be amateurs?
If I did end up doing flee markets, festivals, or parades would that make us look bad in the eyes of buyers?
Today I took a look at some shirts in Nordstoms. All of their shirts feel like they are ringspun. Is this the best quality to use for the boutique buyers.
The gildans just seem to be good for corporate selling etc. What would be a really good brand of shirt for hotels and upscale boutiques?
I don't know if we are barking up a tree that will be a waste of what little money we have. We also thought we could take the slogans and put them on greeting cards.
Thanks to anyone who can help me.
I'm struggling to make ends meet
MJ:confused:
 

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We have already been to the attorney for trademarking and copyrighting which will cost $2200.00. (we have 3 trademark filings and one comprehensive copyright for slogans).
Do you also have money in the budget for going after anybody that may try to take the trademark?

Not giving any legal advice, but that $2200 could go a long way with marketing a new line.

I don't know if we should just take a few shirts and hit the road calling on buyers. Does that make us appear to be amateurs?
It depends on how much research you do and how you present yourselves. Lots of great topics here about dealing with retailers that can help:

retailers related topics at T-Shirt Forums

If I did end up doing flee markets, festivals, or parades would that make us look bad in the eyes of buyers?
To some buyers it might, to other buyers it might not.

This thread will answer a lot of questions in that regard: http://www.t-shirtforums.com/offline-retail-tradeshows/t17894.html

Today I took a look at some shirts in Nordstoms. All of their shirts feel like they are ringspun. Is this the best quality to use for the boutique buyers.
I think so. A higher end shirt will cost more, but it will also give your products more perceived value. I think a ringspun cotton would be at the minimum of what you should be looking for.

The gildans just seem to be good for corporate selling etc. What would be a really good brand of shirt for hotels and upscale boutiques?
We have a whole section of the forums for wholesale t-shirt recommendations. But if you do a search at the top of the page for american apparel, you'll find lots of info on that brand and related brands that are probably along the lines of what you need. You may need to do some sampling to find one you like. Continental Clothing, Article1, Alternative Apparel, epacificsports, Next Level Apparel, Royal Apparel, BareApparel are all great brands to try.

I don't know if we are barking up a tree that will be a waste of what little money we have.
Have you considered focusing on sales to the end user first? Any reason why you want to start with retailers with an unproven line?

I think starting a website and focusing your marketing locally, nationally and internationally via your website and events can help you build up your brand. It can also show "use in commerce" when you go to register a trademark.

I would like to do the markets because I'm in need of extra cash NOW!
I don't know if starting a clothing line will be the fix for that problem.

It can take time and cash and patience to start up a clothing line, build momentum, get the marketing going, etc.

If you need cash "now", you may find that starting a business selling t-shirts may be a frustrating way to go about it.

Not trying to be a downer, but the majority of businesses fail, so there may be more "spending" than "receiving" to start out with.

But with great designs and an even greater business plan, you definitely increase your chances of succeeding :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hello Rodney, Thank you so much for responding. I'd like to address your responses if I may.

No, there is no money to go after anyone who infringes on the trademarks or copyrights. The attorney said usually the offender will stop with a cease and desist order.

When you said that ringspun would be the minimum quality, what other fiber samples should I send for?

I've only done 2 shirt orders. One for a school and the other for a company. In both these instances I've used S & S Activewear to buy blanks and I had them imprinted at Target Graphics. Are you familiar with these companies and if so, what do you think. Can I get as good pricing and imprinting somewhere else for less money?

What is your take on re-labeling? Is it worth the expense?
Thanks again. This is my first post so I'm glad you took the time to reply.
MJ:)
 

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The attorney said usually the offender will stop with a cease and desist order.
Sometimes they will, and sometimes they won't. But if you aren't prepared to go after them (in the case of trademarks anyway), you run the chance of losing the trademark.

When you said that ringspun would be the minimum quality, what other fiber samples should I send for?
Maybe combed cotton. There's a few different things that can be done to a t-shirt to make it soft. Here's a good list of terms: http://www.t-shirtforums.com/general-t-shirt-selling-discussion/t17584.html

I've only done 2 shirt orders. One for a school and the other for a company. In both these instances I've used S & S Activewear to buy blanks and I had them imprinted at Target Graphics
I'm familiar with SS Activewear, they are one of the bigger distributors. You may want to look into getting an account at AlphaShirt.com or TSCApparel.com. AlphaShirt.com carries American Apparel and Alternative Apparel. TSC carries American Apparel and offers relabeling.

Never heard of target graphics. Not that that's any big deal. There are probably 1000's of t-shirt printers around the country that I haven't heard of :)

Can I get as good pricing and imprinting somewhere else for less money?
The only way to find out really is to ask. Just find some more printers and get more quotes. Then you'll find out which ones are competitive and who you might want to work with.

What is your take on re-labeling? Is it worth the expense?
When selling just online, no. When selling to regular brick and mortar retail stores like Nordstroms, yes.

Thanks again. This is my first post so I'm glad you took the time to reply.
:welcome:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hello again and thanks for your support.
I checked out those on line apparel blogs that were mentioned in the forum and I was amazed at the graphics. Our stuff is nothing like that. Our graphics are pretty much one or two lines, sometimes even one word. We're not using multi colors as we are trying to keep costs down. Ours are not artistic by any stretch of the imagination. So I don't think those blogs would even touch us. They'd probably laugh at us!

So you say that Gildan type brands are no problem to sell on the internet? That's good. It almost sounds as though we should go in this direction.

I'm still struggling with the whole trademark and copyright issue. It seems that it's a catch 22 situation.

Looking forward to your thoughts,

Thanks again,
I'm going to check out the sites that you mentioned.

MJ:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hi Prepjerks, I guess we're both up at the crack of dawn trying to "crack" this case! Corny I know but as someone who is new and looking for advice I'm eager to move forward armed with the wisdom that I have been finding on this site.

Regarding the comprehensive copyright that I mentioned: We have well over 50 slogans which can be "bundled" for one copyright fee of $250.00. Our attorney told us to update whenever we had several to save money. Perhaps every quarter or so. Maybe comprehensive was the wrong word.

Let me ask you the same question that Rodney asked me: Would you go after someone who had infringed on your work? I don't think we could really afford to do that. I'm going to talk to my partner this morning and suggest that perhaps we do need to use the money for other things. I'll see what his thoughts are.

Also, if we do a website. What's the deal regarding inventory? What is the least amount of shirts we could have in our inventory. Remember we have a slew of slogans.

Thanks for your input.
MJ
 

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Any reason why you want to start with retailers with an unproven line?
Hi, MJ -

Is your partner also reading this thread? If not, IMHO he should be.

Beside all the excellent factual information he gave you - don't overlook Rodney's extremely important question. Right now, are you ready to answer ALL the questions that the retail buyers will ask you? If not, it won't be much of a sales presentation when you present your line!
 

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I don't know if a state based trademark filing will hold up as strong as a federally based trademark filing.

So you say that Gildan type brands are no problem to sell on the internet? That's good. It almost sounds as though we should go in this direction.
I don't think I said that :) You asked me if I thought relabeling was worth it and I replied that for online sales, not in my personal opinion (especially if a budget is tight)

I'm not a big fan of Gildan's myself. Other people swear by them. So you won't get any hard facts on the "best" t-shirt to use. It's all personal preference. I personally wouldn't sell my designs printed on a Gildan t-shirt. Other people do and do just fine.

Also, if we do a website. What's the deal regarding inventory? What is the least amount of shirts we could have in our inventory. Remember we have a slew of slogans.
Remember that just because you have a slew of slogans doesn't mean that you will sell a slew of slogans or that you have to put all of the slew of slogans up for sale at once.

There's many different ways to handle inventory. You could carry 1 t-shirt of each size, you have them printed on demand by outsourcing through a DTG printer, you could buy a heat press and order custom plastisol heat transfers to apply the designs to the shirts as the orders come in. You could carry 4 of each size in each style, you could start with just 5 slogans and grow as the sales grow.

There are better threads that have discussed these things that can be found under the "start" link here:

start related topics at T-Shirt Forums

This one also might help:

number of designs related topics at T-Shirt Forums
 

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I checked out those on line apparel blogs that were mentioned in the forum and I was amazed at the graphics. Our stuff is nothing like that. [...] Ours are not artistic by any stretch of the imagination. So I don't think those blogs would even touch us. They'd probably laugh at us!
Sounds like you need to do some market research and work out who your target market actually is. If the blogs wouldn't touch your stuff, then the "upscale boutiques" won't either.

Your stuff doesn't have to be flashy, heavy use of colour, etc. but it does have to be interesting and artistic to get high-end retailers interested.

If all you're doing is slogans, then you can't have "slogans to fit each group"; some groups won't touch slogans.

You need to match your product to the right audience, and until you know who that audience is and how you are going to get them to buy your product, I'd be very careful about sinking much cash into it. If you're only discovering these things now, you haven't done enough research to start a business.
 

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MJ,

You're really, really all over the place. You need to focus on one thing at a time here. When you are just starting out, it's a good idea to sell to either the stores (wholesale) or direct to the consumer (retail). You can do both successfully, but it's difficult. You'll also need more funds to get started if you want to do both. Considering that you don't have a lot of startup money I would say pick one and stick with it for a while.

There are pros and cons with both.

Some pros of selling wholesale:

1. You don't print shirts until you have orders from stores - so you have much less of a chance spending money ending up with printed shirts that you can't sell, or shirts with slogans that nobody likes.

2. You can spend much less money on marketing (but you still have to spend some). The stores do their own marketing and sales so it will help you out.

Cons of wholesale:

1. Buyers for stores are much more picky than the average consumer. You need to seem professional and look like you know what you are doing. If you don't, they're not going to want to risk ordering from you. So you need to do a lot of research and make sure you understand how everything works with wholesale before you jump in.

Pros of selling retail:

1. You get higher margins. That means, for every shirt you sell, you make more money.

2. You get your name out there with customers faster (if you do lots of marketing). You get to understand your customer faster because you are interacting directly with them. This can help you make a better offering to wholesale buyers in the future.

Cons of retail:

1. You're printing shirts before you know for sure if they will sell or not. If they don't sell, you're stuck with them. It's a very good way to go broke fast.

2. You have to spend more money to get a place to sell your shirts, whether that's a trade show, festival, flea market (not a good pick in my opinion) or a good website. You have to either be there to sell the shirts (or hire someone to do that), so that takes away time from other things.

3. You MUST spend money on marketing. If you are selling wholesale, you are doing the selling directly to the buyer. If you're selling to a customers, you can't talk to every single one of them yourself, so you need marketing materials, ads, etc. just to get their attention.

I am sure more people can add to the list of pros/cons but that's what jumps to mind right now.

Generally, starting out with wholesale is less risky to start out with, but you need to do you research and really work hard to get buyers to take on your line. Nobody is going to find you by accident and just want to buy your stuff.

I would also strongly recommend you do market research as Solmu suggested. No matter how great you think your stuff is, not every kind of person in this world is going to like it - only a very, very small segment of the population. After you find out WHO those people are, you can target all your marketing efforts on them.

Also as others have mentioned in this thread, starting a business is NOT a way to make money fast. It's actually not uncommon for a successful business to only make enough money to "break even" (make enough money to replace what you spent) in the first year. That means it could be quite a while before you see any actual profit. If you are short on cash just hold off for a while, save some more money, and do some more research in the meantime.

Hope that helps.
 

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Everyone has made some very good and USEFUL points!

My suggestion would be to lay low, you and your partner do A LOT of research, and save your money!

Not to scare you off but I have helped start 100's if not 1000's of startup clothing lines and, unless you are well funded or have a lot of experience and connections, your chances of becoming succesful are very small. That's not to say that it can't be done on a small budget and not much experience but it's going to be a hard road with you not being able to realistically pull any money out of the company for at least a year. You have to keep in mind that you're initial investment along with any profit has to get rolled back into your prodcution costs. Invest $1000. Make $2500. Now you'll need to roll that back into whatever orders you have at hand as your company grows. At some point you'll be able to start pulling a salary from your company but if you are looking to use this as a means of making some cash NOW forget it! It will be a very shortlived venture!

John
 

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page said:
We have already been to the attorney for trademarking and copyrighting which will cost $2200.00. (we have 3 trademark filings and one comprehensive copyright for slogans).
page said:
Our graphics are pretty much one or two lines, sometimes even one word.
page said:
We have well over 50 slogans which can be "bundled" for one copyright fee of $250.00.
Hi Page,

You have another issue at hand to research. The following information is lifted directly from the copyright.gov website:

www.copyright.gov said:
How do I copyright a name, title, slogan or logo?
Copyright does not protect names, titles, slogans, or short phrases.

Here is a link to the copyright.gov website. Please research copyright. One cannot copyright single words, short phrases or slogans. Find out exactly what you will be paying this lawyer for.


U.S. Copyright Office

On the home page, click Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ), go to the second section called "What does copyright protect?", and go to the 6th question "How do I copyright my name, title, slogan or logo?".

There are also many good websites on the net that do a very good job of explaining copyright, what you can and cannot copyright. Good luck to you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Hi Kelly,
As you can see it's 3.21am on the east coast and I can't sleep. Too much on the brain. I'm fried! Thanks for the insight. I went to the US Copyright site that you suggested and read the info. I'm not sure what the difference is with what we're doing but I know that everything that we want our name on has to be "classed". By that, I mean, if we want to do tee shirts and hats we have to tell the government that we want to tee shirts and hats. Those come under class 25. Then if we want to put the same information on a mug then mugs come under a different class.
I'm glad I read the info which I forwarded to my partner. We will contact our attorney this morning to find out where, if any, we differ from what I have read.

We have an opportunity to test market our short phrase so we're going to do up some shirts, doggie tee shirts, totes and greeting cards. I want to do a few fleece blankets and head warmers but I'm not sure how silk screening will look on fleece. Would you know the answer to that? We were going to do hats but I found out you can't silk screen 6 panel hats and the ones I want are all 6 panel. If our test market works to our advantage then we'll think about embroidering the hats.
Thanks again for your advice. Hopefully I'll have some info in the morning. I'll let you know.
MJ
 

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Hi Kelly,
As you can see it's 3.21am on the east coast and I can't sleep. Too much on the brain. I'm fried! Thanks for the insight. I went to the US Copyright site that you suggested and read the info. I'm not sure what the difference is with what we're doing but I know that everything that we want our name on has to be "classed". By that, I mean, if we want to do tee shirts and hats we have to tell the government that we want to tee shirts and hats. Those come under class 25. Then if we want to put the same information on a mug then mugs come under a different class.
MJ, sorry to give you yet one more thing to keep you up at night. I'm glad to hear you went to the copyright site. Research is your best friend right now. There are alot of people who will be happy to take your start up money, just make sure you really needed to spend it in the first place.

page said:
I'm glad I read the info which I forwarded to my partner. We will contact our attorney this morning to find out where, if any, we differ from what I have read.
Consider consulting a second attorney as well, like a second opinion with a doc. I wouldn't just take this one lawyer's word for it. Make sure you get the same answer. Although personally, I think reading up on the subject yourself will give you the clearest answer. Why? Because the folks you are asking (lawyers) stand a chance to profit from you moving forward.
page said:
We have an opportunity to test market our short phrase so we're going to do up some shirts, doggie tee shirts, totes and greeting cards. I want to do a few fleece blankets and head warmers but I'm not sure how silk screening will look on fleece. Would you know the answer to that? We were going to do hats but I found out you can't silk screen 6 panel hats and the ones I want are all 6 panel. If our test market works to our advantage then we'll think about embroidering the hats.
Great, that's awesome news! Best of luck to you both. I hope it goes great, and is a lot of fun for you. It's awesome when your stuff sells, best feeling! :)

I don't know about the screening and fleece, but there are tons of folks on here that will. :) I would do a search on "screen printing fleece" to return threads on that. :)
 

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Hi MJ, Here is a little more info for you from the copyright.gov site, just to give you a better idea of what I suspect may possibly be happening here. Here is a link to the copyright.gov page of fees:

U.S. Copyright Office - Online Services (eCO: Electronic Copyright Office)

A collection can be submitted for $35 to $45 depending on which method you choose (or your lawyer chooses.) There is no guarentee any of your short phrases or slogans will be copyrightable. Reading the website, it say NO slogans or short phases are able to be copyrighted. There is no way to be different from that. But the lawyer will make $205 - $215 to submit it for you, which his secretary will do. ;)

There are really great sites besides the copyright.gov site that explain what can and can't be copyrighted. I've read many of them to get a basic understanding of it, so I've know they are there. They really are very helpful to do research. At the very least, you can demand a solid answer from your lawyer why he thinks your slogans are different and can be copyrighted. You may find out because he likes to make over $200 very quickly. He has nothing to lose, only you do (your money). Again, it's why I say you must educate yourself before you ask him to take your money. Just be very careful, okay? :)
 

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At the very least, you can demand a solid answer from your lawyer why he thinks your slogans are different and can be copyrighted. You may find out because he likes to make over $200 very quickly. He has nothing to lose, only you do (your money). Again, it's why I say you must educate yourself before you ask him to take your money. Just be very careful, okay? :)
While I wholeheartedly agree that you should do your own research as much as possible before going to a lawyer, it's not right to characterize all lawyers as being out to take your money without consideration, with "nothing to lose".

A lawyers job is to give you advice. If he gives you advice to go ahead or to not go ahead, you still have to pay him for that advice. The fees for sending in your copyright would separate from that.

If the advice he gives you is downright WRONG or illegal, you can complain to your local Law Society and they will make his life miserable. So it's not like he can just say whatever the heck he wants just to take your money.

I am sure there are plenty of lawyers who want to squeeze every last drop of money out of you, but most of the ones I deal with on a daily basis (I work for one, and I deal with other offices all the time) are focused on helping their clients. The majority of the money they make is from repeat clients who had a good experience and want to come back again. Screwing somebody over is not typically a good way to get repeat clients.
 

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While I wholeheartedly agree that you should do your own research as much as possible before going to a lawyer, it's not right to characterize all lawyers as being out to take your money without consideration, with "nothing to lose".
Yes, it is not right to characterize all lawyers as being out to take money without consideration, which is why I didn't say that. ;)

I will never paint a whole entire profession with the same brush because that is not accurate, nor would it be fair. Each individual person has to go by their own individual experience

It is this lawyer's behaviour in this particular case that prompted my statements, and yes, I stand by them. All of this is contradictory to the rules of copyright, yet MJ is about to pay $250, maybe more according to you, and I think the situation begs a "Why?". If nothing more, ask "Why?". But MJ has to read up on copyright so they can ask the right questions, and understand the answers fully.

Will this lawyer let them pay him to file this copyright application, even if he knows there is no hope of slogans being copyrighted? That is the question I am encouraging MJ to find the answer to.

It is possible some lawyers would, and possible some wouldn't. Lawyers sell a service, like anyone else who sells a service, it is buyer beware. Are there good lawyers out there? Certainly. One just has to make sure they are dealing with one.

The reason for my concern, which I stand by, is why hasn't the lawyer even advised them slogans are not copyrightable? It's there in black and white on the website. MJ has said that at least one of their designs is a "single word" ???. The lawyer has not addressed that either.

Which is why I am encouraging MJ to read and compile her research. She has more time than money.

If there is a valid reason why, then MJ can consider moving forward. Another reason why I suggested a second opinion.

A doctor may say surgery is required and a second opinion show it is not. Lawyers are not exempt from the same thing.

Another lawyer may be able to tell MJ slogans cannot be copyrighted, thus saving them this $250, which they need, they don't have alot of start up, so they need to spend wisely.


Regarding the other points:

jasonda said:
A lawyers job is to give you advice. If he gives you advice to go ahead or to not go ahead, you still have to pay him for that advice.
Yes, and no. I have gotten advice and not been charged. Only would be charged if I proceeded with the services discussed.

But generally, yes, time is money with a lawyer.

That was another concern of mine for MJ. Even if the copyrights don't go through, the lawyer will still need to be paid for their time.

Another perfect reason to research copyright throughly before deciding whether or not to enlist the time/service of an attorney. Great point, Jasonda.

jasonda said:
The fees for sending in your copyright would separate from that.
I didn't read that in MJ's post. She said $250 for filing 50 or so slogans. I suppose MJ could answer that best if there is the additional fees attached, only making this curious situation more expensive if that is true.

jasonda said:
If the advice he gives you is downright WRONG or illegal, you can complain to your local Law Society and they will make his life miserable. So it's not like he can just say whatever the heck he wants just to take your money.
Agreed, but does that get MJ her money back? I wouldn't know, but working for a lawyer, maybe you would.

jansonda said:
I am sure there are plenty of lawyers who want to squeeze every last drop of money out of you,
I'm sure more people would agree with you on this point than not.

But as in any case when one is going to invest what little dollars they have, they need to know they are doing it for a good reason.

MJ needs to know that there could be a lawyer or two out there that may not be as honest as your boss and those you associate with, and she must be an educated consumer with her money.

MJ may indeed have copyrightable slogans, single words and short phrases, despite what the copyright.gov website says, but she needs understand more about copyright before she blindly hands over her money.

After all, if everything comes back denied for copyright for being slogans, single words, and short phrases, it isn't the lawyer who makes that decision, it is the copyright office. ;)

The lawyer was paid to submit, and his job is done.

jasonda said:
but most of the ones I deal with on a daily basis (I work for one, and I deal with other offices all the time) are focused on helping their clients. The majority of the money they make is from repeat clients who had a good experience and want to come back again.
That is wonderful and I wish I could have hired your boss when I needed a lawyer. My own personal experience has been different, very different. It is a long story, but it was an eye opener. I felt very naive once I learned how it can all work. Oh, and I also felt poorer, to the tune of $5,000 (when $2,500 was supposed to get the job done) but we had to protect our land I was told. We could have lost a significant portion if we didn't protect it. Live and learn. It stunk!

Trust me when I say, there is at least one lawyer out there who will let you hire him and pay him for something that you won't get a real value out of. :)

MJ needs to be sure they aren't in a situation like we were. There is nothing wrong with suggesting someone make sure they are getting the dollars worth, imo. Especially after having personally been "taken to the bank" myself by a lawyer. Yet, even after my experience I did not say "all lawyers", because not all are going to do that. ;)

jasonda said:
Screwing somebody over is not typically a good way to get repeat clients.
Do we still use that lawyer? Yes, for wills, deeds, and things like that. I can trust them for that.

For things that are more ambivilant in nature, like in MJ's case, best to arm yourself with the facts and find out if the lawyer you are dealing with is on the up and up, like your boss is, or if the lawyer is one who is willing to let you pay the electric for the month, or year, in our case.

If I ever had a legal situation - I would use this other guy we also consulted (church associate). We made a mistake when we used the lawyer we used. He was the "family lawyer" out here for 15 years. That got us far. :rolleyes:

PS: Jasonda, don't you live in Canada? It could very well be the difference in region that shapes our opinions and differences in experiences.

If you ask the typical person in the US, they'll more likely advise you to beware before they'll tell you trust in good faith - when it comes to lawyers. Heck, my mom dated a lawyer for 6 years, you should hear the jokes they have about themselves!! :rolleyes:

I value your opinion, tho, it isn't mine, which is fine and good. I am glad you haven't seen what I have seen possible in the legal profession, but just the same, just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I am also happy to read there are good people in a profession that isn't highly regarded as having alot of folks doing the "right thing". I believe everyone should act with integrity, and it lifts my spirits to hear of folks doing just that.

Thank you for your post, the more folks share their own experiences, the more well rounded the discussion. :)

I can show MJ they should be cautious before they write the check, and you can show MJ there are lawyers of integrity to be found out there (and I agree with you on that). :)
 

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I think Kelly has a good point -

A man phones a lawyer and asks, "How much would you charge for just answering three simple questions?"
The lawyer replies, "A thousand dollars."
"A thousand dollars!" exclaims the man. "That's very expensive isn't it?"
"It certainly is," says the lawyer. "Now, what's your third question?" :rolleyes:
 
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