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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Im doing up a sample for a store , and all they requested was a plain old " I love New York" kinda wording. I will do some on t-shirts and some of the girls would like sum on girls tank tops. Here is what i got so far , for a rough draft . Im not sure how to space this proper or the size of the letters or if something should be larger than the other. The text is bookman. And done in Photoshop. What is common and looks good? Thanks
 

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I would certainly pull the I and Heart closer together. That spacing hurts my eyes. I personally dont like the outline either but thats just opinion. Here is a super quick mockup with Bookman font, the way I would do it. For spacing on JIMMY, the J and I as well as the M and Y can merge. But NOT the IMM because it will not read well.

Just my 2 cents.
 

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imagine. there used to be 'back in the day' a profession all it's own called typesetting. things were done back in the day of hand placing steel blocks of text and printed one sheet at a time using hand presses then came the days of imagesetters and the people that understood how to use such machines. everything was output on a slick paper which was then waxed on the back and pasted up on art boards. hence the term paste-up artist. yeah this old fart was one of them.

then came the personal pc and now everyone can do on their own desktop what used to take a type house (including camera in his darkroom) days to do in minutes. ahh the good old days......but enough of that.

i was tought that is was never alright to have letters touch or merge unless that was the desired effect wanted by the designer. if you are typing out a book or a brochure for example it would be wise to get a program like indesign which has basically taken over quarkexpress as the industry standard for page layout. in such a case it would ok to let the program automatically handle (with operators specs) things like word spacing and line spacing. even so there are copy people that will go through every page looking for gaffs that sometimes even a powerful program like indesign won't understand. like you don't want the intentional breakup of certain words at end of sentences or they'd go in and say for instance make the beginning letter of the beginning word of a chapter and make it larger than the regular text size (as seen in most books nowadays). and other people would check for gaffs in kerning. this is what you have in your design.

i agree with csaluone with his interpretation of the design except for the letters touching, unless that is what you want. depending on what program you are using you want to get in there on a simple design like this and do your own kerning between letters. sure there is an age old rule that the base of a letter should be this compared to that and blah blah blah but just do it until it looks right to you.

a good old trick is to zoom in on the word in question and get in there with the type tool between letters and look at it with a sort of cross eyed look (as if you were trying to figure out an old impressionist painting) and do manual kerning (option and arrow keys in illy) and move things around until you've got a tight readable word.

it sounds like a bunch of hoo hah but you'd be surprised at the hours spent on this stuff in an ad agency doing a one or two word campaign. everyone from the production artist to the president of the agency has their finger in the mix.

-good luck!
 

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Perfect response. The problem is, is that not everyone with AI, PS or Corel are artists and may not even to be able to tell whether things look proper. Thats why buying software doesnt make someone an instant designer. (Im sure you already know this :))

The letters touching is just to my liking. I've been designing for many years and kern every design with relevant text in it.

I do the squint/cross with my eyes and then "feel" whats correct for the design. There are rules and guidelines but I prefer to "feel" whats good!

Bad kerning is everywhere and WILL ruin design AND will separate mediocrity from greatness!
 

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imagine. there used to be 'back in the day' a profession all it's own called typesetting. things were done back in the day of hand placing steel blocks of text and printed one sheet at a time using hand presses then came the days of imagesetters and the people that understood how to use such machines. everything was output on a slick paper which was then waxed on the back and pasted up on art boards. hence the term paste-up artist. yeah this old fart was one of them.

then came the personal pc and now everyone can do on their own desktop what used to take a type house (including camera in his darkroom) days to do in minutes. ahh the good old days......but enough of that.

i was tought that is was never alright to have letters touch or merge unless that was the desired effect wanted by the designer. if you are typing out a book or a brochure for example it would be wise to get a program like indesign which has basically taken over quarkexpress as the industry standard for page layout. in such a case it would ok to let the program automatically handle (with operators specs) things like word spacing and line spacing. even so there are copy people that will go through every page looking for gaffs that sometimes even a powerful program like indesign won't understand. like you don't want the intentional breakup of certain words at end of sentences or they'd go in and say for instance make the beginning letter of the beginning word of a chapter and make it larger than the regular text size (as seen in most books nowadays). and other people would check for gaffs in kerning. this is what you have in your design.

i agree with csaluone with his interpretation of the design except for the letters touching, unless that is what you want. depending on what program you are using you want to get in there on a simple design like this and do your own kerning between letters. sure there is an age old rule that the base of a letter should be this compared to that and blah blah blah but just do it until it looks right to you.

a good old trick is to zoom in on the word in question and get in there with the type tool between letters and look at it with a sort of cross eyed look (as if you were trying to figure out an old impressionist painting) and do manual kerning (option and arrow keys in illy) and move things around until you've got a tight readable word.

it sounds like a bunch of hoo hah but you'd be surprised at the hours spent on this stuff in an ad agency doing a one or two word campaign. everyone from the production artist to the president of the agency has their finger in the mix.

-good luck!
OMG!!! I just had a flash back!! LOL!

How about having to do type specking for the typesetter to use to know what you wanted…. I was a Keyliner (paste-up artist) also. Oh how I hated doing forms with all those little dashes for the letters…

Another flash back…

I need to go find a happy place now.

I do agree with miktoxic , the letters really shouldn’t touch unless that is the look you are going for. If you set that standard and will be doing other names you might run into an issue of a name looking like a different word. Like when my husband’s boss at the dealership told him he couldn't write on the phrase “Fixed the Flicker” on work orders any more… his “l and I” would get connected …not good.
 

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Guidelines I use for letters touching:

The font must allow for a good look.
It must read at a small size.
It must not look like another word.

I dont believe in a set rule for lettering and letters not touching. If letters were not meant to touch, we wouldnt have cursive/script fonts and texts.

I am old enough that I hand set letters in school and designed for several years without a computer and I have studied type and text for years. I have worked about every dept. of print/design/apparel/sign shops and I also do industrial design.

I believe I have the experience, understanding and freedom to justify what I do with text.

Not trying to start an argument, just letting you guys know that I do know a thing or 2 about lettering. :D
 

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i think we understand and it wasn't my intention to start an argument either. people learn different things by different people at different times.

the reason i was taught that letters shouldn't touch is primarily because the typesetters using old linotronic equipment didn't have the power to do it unless they were top notch and even then it would waste soooo much time and paper that it was really up to us pasteup artists to go in with exacto knife in hand using a non repro blue pen and to line up, overlay, cutaway and retouch something like the design you showed above.

that is was i was taught on-the-job. i didn't take any typography classes. we all have different backgrounds and work history. hell, some of the best designs i've ever seen go against everything i was taught. does it mean i would do it that way? probably not.

CW and i aren't ganging up on you, just taking a walk down memory lane.

and if you had read my original post you might have seen the compliment in there.

-peace.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Great feed back everyone...I really appreciate it. The reason i added a outline was incase they wanted a few on black. All i have is inkjet transfers, so , i thought i could have a little bit of room for cutting out the letters. I wish people would tell me what they want, rather than leave it up to me, but its still fun playing around.
 

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My rule of thumb is “There are no rules only guidelines” as Tim and you have said with everyone being able to use computers to type the guidelines have changed and blurred over the years. Good structure, balance and layout will still be needed to have a good design. Just because someone uses a computer and a graphics program doesn’t mean they understand a good layout. That’s why you’re here…like us to help guide others where they need help and offer our suggestions and to learn something from others as well.
Oh, I guess I do have one rule…don’t use Old English All Caps in circle text!
CW
 

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i know the following is off topic but.....

are you going to do the final work using transfers or just show them as a mockup?

did the customer originally ask for embroidery (since that is what they've done in the past)?

what type of shirt do they want (tshirt, polo, fleece etc.)?
 

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Im DzvzzzZyZzzZuh?zzzzzzzZZZxzzzzzZzaZZzzzzZzznzBznnnzZzZzzbbzzbnzZzzzzz!rAzzZ up a sample for a store , and all they requested was a plain old " I love NewZ ZzYork" kinda wording. I will Ado some on t-shirts and ezsomeZzaZ of the girls would like sum on girls tank tops. Here is what i got so far , for a rough draft . Im not sure how to space this proper or the size of the letters or if something should be larger than the other. The text is bookman. And done in Photoshop. What is common and looks good? Thanks
EzezMZNZZZZ

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
i know the following is off topic but.....

are you going to do the final work using transfers or just show them as a mockup?

did the customer originally ask for embroidery (since that is what they've done in the past)?

what type of shirt do they want (tshirt, polo, fleece etc.)?
Yes....The final will be just transfers , on gilden T's and tanks and girls tanks. I dont have a cutter either, so , if the girls want them on black tanks, i will have to do hand cutting. Thats what i get when i take small jobs from friends. haha
 

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i got ya.

i was just going to say you might want to think about doing custom plastisol transfers. for a one color design you'd probably still make some money (if you're charging the friends) without all the hassle of hand cutting, plus the quality will be ten fold.

for the last couple of small jobs i've done i used f and m expressions. they have a deal going on now where you pay a $20 setup charge and then the tranfers are just 15 cents each then shipping to you.
 
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