T-Shirt Forums banner

Google Images...?

8K views 34 replies 16 participants last post by  ronr76 
#1 ·
I'm pretty sure this has been asked before, but I just barely joined this site, and I have a question that needs to be answered as soon as possible. My boyfriend is starting his own t-shirt printing business in the UK, and he's just setting up a site for it on Myspace. Nothing too special. But he talked to a few shops in London that sold copyrighted images about this, and I'm not sure if he got correct information or not. Each shop told him that he would need to buy the rights to print and sell copyrighted images. However, if he searched images on Google, then he could use them without buying the rights, because Google is free reign and no one could sue him because he got it off Google Images. Is this true? Because my boyfriend doesn't have much money at all, and he figures he'll just use the Google Images and everything will be fine. I'm worried about this though. Anyone have any input that I can tell him??? :confused:
 
#2 ·
I don't know about UK law...but I think in the USA he would be in violation of someone's rights..just because it is on google does not transfer any rights...example someone puts another's property on googe without permission and I used it...I would still be in violation as the posting individual did not have the right to do so...

after reading the above...not sure I made sense...but in short answer...I don't think your friend got good advice
 
#4 ·
Wait, so here's another question about that. Say my boyfriend didn't put up these images from google for other people to choose and get printed on his t-shirts. What if he just had a "customize" option and other people found images off of google to use? Then is he in violation? Because he's just doing the printing. He didn't choose the image to put on the t-shirt. Someone else did.
Right???
 
#5 ·
again....don't know about UK...but I think 'due diligence' is required..if the image is one that most people would recognize, I would not print without permission.but if it was an obscure image I doubt he would be in trouble but who knows. I recently had a request from a customer...an insurance agent...to do some polo shirts with the company logo...I would not do it without okay from the corporate office...which they refused...

Right now my own policy is ....if I recognize it, I ask for permission...If I don't I proceed with customers request.
 
#7 ·
However, if he searched images on Google, then he could use them without buying the rights, because Google is free reign and no one could sue him because he got it off Google Images. Is this true?
No, it's dangerously untrue. There isn't even a scrap of truth to it.

What if he just had a "customize" option and other people found images off of google to use? Then is he in violation?
Sadly yes. This is why printers need to be careful - their customers can get them in trouble.

If it became relevant (i.e. if he got sued) it would be up to a court to decide. But to give two hypothetical examples, this is how it would likely go:

1) Customer steals Mickey Mouse image, takes it to printer. Disney sues. Disney is successful against both parties, as printer could reasonably be expected to know this was an unauthorised copy.
2) Customer steals Design #1 from my website, takes it to printer. I sue. I am successful against the customer, but not the printer. The customer was clearly in violation of copyright. The printer couldn't reasonably be expected to be aware of my site, he's not liable.

No guarantees, but that's likely how it would go. Less clear cut examples (e.g. a Threadless design), who knows how a court would decide?
 
#11 ·
Do a search on google "images" for some type of image. Click on one of the results. At the top of the screen, you'll see that there's a warning that the image may be subject to copyright.

That warning should be enough to put you on notice that copying the image may get you in some type of trouble.

Why not try Wikipedia commons and look for some public domain stuff. It's not the best place, but it's a start.
 
#14 ·
Totally overkill. You don't need an attorney to tell you what can easily be verified with any free legitimate source of copyright information (e.g. copyright.gov, copyright.org.au, etc.). If you have a grey area question lawyers are useful, but for things like this it's a waste of time and money.
 
#15 ·
Just a quick point i want to interject with..... if i say find photograph on Google image of a motorbike for example, then i trace said image myself and basically turn it into a unique piece.....is that fair game? I mean it would jsut be an outline and a graphic design image and not a photograph anymore?? I'm intriged by this topic...good thread.
 
#17 ·
Thanks for the quick reply...well i'm pretty shocked by that... if you look at alot of Art, and particularly reference 'pop' Art, that has always used alot of actual images from our pop culture, look at What Warhol used. If i make a t shirts with James Dean on it i have no choice but to use a picture taken by someone else?? Also why on cafepress is it loaded at the moment with Obama and Mc Caine t shirts? have they all paid to use these images?
 
#18 ·
well i'm pretty shocked by that...
It's a common reaction from people who didn't do any primary, or even secondary, research before asking a tertiary source. Have a sit down and a warm cup of tea. Catch your breath. Realise we more or less live in a police state, ruled by our corporate overlords. It'll pass.

if you look at alot of Art, and particularly reference 'pop' Art, that has always used alot of actual images from our pop culture, look at What Warhol used.
Most of it's either old, or illegal. The Warhols of today are street artists. Since what they're doing is illegal anyway, copyright isn't a primary concern. Copyright laws have become more and more draconian over the years. The world doesn't stand still.

Also, more and more courts are drawing a line between artists and businesses.

If i make a t shirts with James Dean on it i have no choice but to use a picture taken by someone else??
You also have no choice but to pay royalties to his estate.

Also why on cafepress is it loaded at the moment with Obama and Mc Caine t shirts? have they all paid to use these images?
Because the first amendment trumps the right to publicity (if not copyright law). Until free speech is made illegal, they're fair game.

That and Cafepress is loaded with illegal content that just hasn't been removed yet.
 
#19 ·
I'm enlightened. Also kinda keen to not let it stop me.... As an Artist /Graphic designer i'd never ever ever ever steal another fellow Artists work and pass it off as my own.....but i'm dammed if i'm not going to use certain existing imagery (race cars, old retro things) to trace around and manipulate into 'Art'.

Cheers for heads up though....
 
#23 ·
I'm enlightened. Also kinda keen to not let it stop me.... As an Artist /Graphic designer i'd never ever ever ever steal another fellow Artists work and pass it off as my own.....but i'm dammed if i'm not going to use certain existing imagery (race cars, old retro things) to trace around and manipulate into 'Art'.
Common sense applies here.

Personally I think there are three considerations here. There's what's legal, and then there's what's ethical. They don't have a 1:1 overlap.

So the first step is to never do anything unethical.

If what you're doing is ethical but illegal, that's when the third consideration comes into play: am I going to get caught?

If what you're doing is ethical and unlikely to get you in trouble, it's entirely your call whether or not you care that it's technically illegal.

One thing to bear in mind is that what's ethical isn't entirely up to the individual to decide. In the grey area we all make our own decisions, but if there's a consensus amongst peers that something is unethical, individual opinion holds little weight.

Clearly I'm not encouraging the idea that you can copy whatever you want. But we all know copyright law is in desperate need of reform. We all know following it blindly is stupid. And few people actually do, despite what we might say.

Piracy is scummy, no matter what justifications people might tell themselves about overpaid record companies, etc., but there's a chasm between piracy and... shall we say "artistic borrowing"?

The problem with common sense is twofold. One is the cliché: it's not actually common. The second is that in order to exercise common sense you need to be informed. Most people don't bother informing themselves, so you get posts like Ron's above full of misinformation.

Fair use is when I include a picture in my review. Fair use is when I photocopy a page from a book for educational use in an educational institution. Fair use is when a song happens to appear in the background of the video clip of my baby dancing. Fair use isn't when I use a portion of an image for commercial gain - whatever that portion is.

It might be an ethical fair use, but it isn't a legal one.

If you come onto a public forum and ask whether or not you can use something, all we can reasonably do is err on the side of caution and say no.

If you want the answer to be "yes" then don't ask other people. If you want to act on that yes, then educate yourself about copyright law so you know what you're doing. Know when you're doing something illegal, and ask yourself whether or not you're okay with that. Don't just assume it doesn't bother you.

For the sake of your own integrity you also need to maintain balance. If all you ever do is collage together obscure pieces of other people's images into new works, you're not much of a designer. If you use images as reference here and there, base your image on someone else's car to save walking outside to take a photo of your own, etc. then we all know there's no harm in it. But that doesn't mean we can give you the all clear - you have to do that yourself.

But again I would say, all artists and designers need to have an understanding of copyright law so they can make those decisions intelligently and independently. Don't trust what you read on forums. There are plenty of good legal resources on well-established credible websites. Read them.
 
#20 ·
I would say the majority of images found on google fall under "Fair Use".

Those from Stock image sites that are taken by professional photographers that generate income from their photos are not, however.

Also, if you trace and image and vectorize it or manipulate it in any way is said to be "Transformative" and therefore falls under Fair use

Also, it depends on how much of the image as whole you use. For example if I take an image of a Model and crop out her body except one of her hands and use it as part of a graphic I create, then that would be fair use.

Lastly, use your common sense and read up the subject for free. Contacting a lawyer is basically throwing money away, unless you have it and don't mind throwing it away, which I'm guessing you don't.
And if you do contact a lawyer, his advice may or may not be correct. The only person who can decide fair use is a JUDGE.
 
#21 ·
I would say the majority of images found on google fall under "Fair Use".
I would say this is incorrect and not a good idea to assume.

You can find images of nike t-shirts, chevy cars, pepsi cans and all kinds of images that are subject to copyright.

WHERE you find the image has no bearing on whether it is fair use.

HOW you use the image is where "fair use" comes into play.

When you are using the image for merchandise for sale, "fair use" goes out the window in most cases that have been decided by courts.

Some of the questions in this thread are easily answered with a "no, don't do that". When you want to start getting into gray areas, that's when the law can get tricky, and it's not a good idea to ask for or give out legal advice in a forum where the result could cost someone a lot of money if the court decides the forum advice wasn't true.
 
#24 ·
I would say this is incorrect and not a good idea to assume.

You can find images of nike t-shirts, chevy cars, pepsi cans and all kinds of images that are subject to copyright..
yeah and you have a million more of amatuer type of non branded products, such as sunsets, birds, architectures, streets, cars people, crowds, events, etc..


WHERE you find the image has no bearing on whether it is fair use. ..
Thats true
HOW you use the image is where "fair use" comes into play.
True as well
When you are using the image for merchandise for sale, "fair use" goes out the window in most cases that have been decided by courts.
Not true.
Copyright laws are intended for commerical market protection.
If a non-commerical image is used commercially then the burden of proof lies on the copyright owner for commercial use.

Some of the questions in this thread are easily answered with a "no, don't do that". When you want to start getting into gray areas, that's when the law can get tricky, and it's not a good idea to ask for or give out legal advice in a forum where the result could cost someone a lot of money if the court decides the forum advice wasn't true.
I understand you opt for the safe answer of "no, don't do that", but this is a forum where opinions are shared and discussed.


The main thing to consider is that TShirt art is generally transformative in nature. If I need a graphic of a tree I normally google tree, search for the image I want. Bring it in to photoshop and apply filters, make it a silhouette, add it to an existing graphic. Using images in this way in no means violates copyright laws.
 
#22 ·
I would like to add that this business is a "content" business. And the only way to avoid problems and create a sustainable business is to generate your own content.

Getting into this business and looking for ways to take content from others is like getting into the magazine business and trying to figure out how to use articles written by others without paying for them.

R.
 
#27 ·
Ok well like i say i don't rip off peoples designs or ideas, and i have a pretty creative imagination so do alot of my own designs fresh from my pen, but i would if i needed a silhouette of a tree for a design, be tempted to pick up a book on trees or use google image, i would then simply turn a photograph of random tree into something different and use it anyway i saw fit. Now really no one can surely say i am doing something wrong there? If the photographer even noticed it his photo had been used as the silhouette he would have a job of not looking like a total petty dweeb to sue the person?
 
#28 ·
I understand you opt for the safe answer of "no, don't do that", but this is a forum where opinions are shared and discussed.
However, when a person is asking for advice, and someone posts an "opinion" that sounds like legal advice, there is a line that is crossed. That's what happens often in these threads. Opinions are often stated as facts and misinterpreted by those reading to be facts. What we say here has an effect, and it's not a backroom private academic discussion. It's read by trademark holders, lawyers, people just learning, people who skim, etc.

If your opinion costs someone $1000's of dollars because they thought you knew what you were talking about, that presents a problem. Many forums don't allow legal discussion for many reasons (like liability), and here our guideline is to err on the side of caution so as not to get someone sued by well meaning advice or opinions masquerading as advice.

Ok well like i say i don't rip off peoples designs or ideas, and i have a pretty creative imagination so do alot of my own designs fresh from my pen, but i would if i needed a silhouette of a tree for a design, be tempted to pick up a book on trees or use google image, i would then simply turn a photograph of random tree into something different and use it anyway i saw fit. Now really no one can surely say i am doing something wrong there? If the photographer even noticed it his photo had been used as the silhouette he would have a job of not looking like a total petty dweeb to sue the person?
If you read Solmu's post #23 above, it covers that pretty well.
 
#29 ·
If its copyrighted or trademarked do not re-print it without permission.
I have seen shows where people are reprinting registered logos - and they show them getting busted even in china - the capital of fake goods.

REAL SIMPLE- Anything trademarked, registered or copyrighted - do not duplicate without permission from that company.
Go by these rules and everything will be ok.
 
#30 ·
Just a little bit of info, not many people know about....

There is one "loophole" in regards to any imagery....(even likenesses...but that is a bit more touchy)....however trademarks and such, usually fall out of this loophole.

...if you are able to recreate a piece of art from complete memory...that means....not even looking at a reference piece, while creating the art.

you are in the clear to create away......because essentially it will be your unique vision on the new piece....even if it looks strikingly similiar to a different piece...it still came from your own mind.

now that being said, you need some killer skill and talent to do this....and if your are someone who posesses such a skill....you probably wouldn't have any interest in copying someones work anyways.

just be aware if someone has issue with your recreation....be prepared to duplicate the effort in a court of law...or least be able to demonstrate that you are capable of producing such artwork.
 
#34 ·
I'd say you & your boyfriend create all your own artwork & steer clear of google images.

If a client brings in an image to print, be as prudent as you can but it's not humanly possible to cover all bases. You may want to prepare a little agreement that says your client is fully aware & responsible that their image/artwork is original, and get them to sign it.
 
#35 ·
The term "Google images" is to broad in scope to really answer.
If by"Images" you mean images of t-shirt art images that are already on T-shirts being sold then NO, that is a copyright violation.

If by "Images" you mean an image of Tree that you got from a photo that you cut out and turned it to shiloutte or transformed in anyway and used as part of a graphic that you created then you should be good.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top