[QuantumLeap]

Epson F2000 DTG White Edition Product Warning: STOP! Before buying this unit customer beware! No matter how well you maintain this unit, you will incur very high yearly maintenance expenses- minimum $2000/yr. if you get the extended warranty after the 1st year! If you don't get the extended warranty your maintenance costs can be as high as $4-$5000+ per year, even with good maintenance. It doesn't matter how well you maintain the F2000, unless you're a technician, it is designed to require these repairs! There's no getting around it! Once your in, they got you by the b****!" If you know what I mean.
These units are intended to keep customers reigned in, without ANY pity! They are scientifically designed planned obsolescence to require repairs as soon as the 1st yr warranty expires despite the level of your maintenance attention, unless you're literally a service tech! You ain't gettin' around this one, buddy!!! No way José! You're a cooked goose! And Epson will eat you!
If you don't get the $2000 extended warranty you're looking at far more! They told me to get that extended warranty, $2000.00. But business had been slow....I didn't have the extra $2000.00 to dump in a warranty only to gamble it might require maintenance, but the gamble was stacked against me…no wonder they keep mentioning the $2000.00 extended warranty! "Get the warranty!" I wanted to, but just didn't have the cash...& I asked them if they really made a product that bad, to require a $2000 cost for a printer just a year new?!! They said, "well, you never know, best to err on caution!" Well, you're telling me!!! Yes they do make a product that crappy, & don't even have the decency to at least give you a two year warranty on a $20,000 DTG???!!! All that ink I buy, $209.00 per cartridge of color??!!! What??!! They just outright extort you!!! I'm mad!
I figured, it's not even a year old…business slow, short on finances, I'm sure Epson makes a good product, etc. NOPE!
Learned the hard way! One year almost to the day after I unpackaged the printer & in the middle of a customer print job last Friday night I get this error:

"*Error 1410:
Maintenance unit error....
Pump cap assembly....
Start/Restart printer, if problem persists call in for service repair."

Find out today: $2000.00 to get it fixed!
And that's not even the printer head!!!! That'll be another $2000-$4000.00 next month when that piece goes out on me, not including the cost of lost printing time!!!!
Epson is a deceitful company. They basically force you into a $2000.00 extended yearly warranty retainer, just to keep the machine in operation! Outrageous.
These machines are designedd to not only keep you locked in through high price of inks & other accessories, but the warranty will cost you more than everything else combined every year!
And if you don't get that $2000/yr extended service warranty retainer, you're gonna spend, $3000, $4000, $5000/ year for a service tech to come out every time the ink clogs & shuts down your unit! Good luck people………I'm sticking to straight out screen printing!

 

[Mammath]

You don't hear many dealers advising potential customers any of this. Wonder why? lol

The Pump Cap Assy should only cost a few hundred $$$ to replace by a tech, including the part.

 

[ssmedia7]

I purchase the warranty for all of my production equipment. Why? Because it’s never a matter of “if” it will break down. It’s always about “when.” My Epson 6200 (wide format Sublimation) Printer gave me almost 4 good years before it was no good. The machine cost me $7500 and I purchased the warranty for two more years. I made my money back off the machine the first Christmas that I had it. Simply put, it’s a money maker. I purchased the Epson 6070 after that. I also have the F2000 and I plan on purchasing the warranty for the same reasons you are stating.

What you didn’t mention is that ALL of the DTG companies charge $1500-$2000 for those extended warranties. It does not matter the brand! My HP Latex wide format has a year warranty renewal of $1800. Yup!

So, my advice is to open a second bank account, like I did, and put about 3-5% of your earnings in that account for repairs, new equipment and so forth. I started doing this about 10 years go. You have to have the mentality, “it’s not my money.. it’s the machines money!” Otherwise you will be tempted to dip into that account when times are hard.

I know it sucks! It’s part of the game. We will need repairs. **shrugg**


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[Mammath]

I purchase the warranty for all of my production equipment. Why? Because it’s never a matter of “if” it will break down. It’s always about “when.” My Epson 6200 (wide format Sublimation) Printer gave me almost 4 good years before it was no good. The machine cost me $7500 and I purchased the warranty for two more years. I made my money back off the machine the first Christmas that I had it. Simply put, it’s a money maker. I purchased the Epson 6070 after that. I also have the F2000 and I plan on purchasing the warranty for the same reasons you are stating.

What you didn’t mention is that ALL of the DTG companies charge $1500-$2000 for those extended warranties. It does not matter the brand! My HP Latex wide format has a year warranty renewal of $1800. Yup!

So, my advice is to open a second bank account, like I did, and put about 3-5% of your earnings in that account for repairs, new equipment and so forth. I started doing this about 10 years go. You have to have the mentality, “it’s not my money.. it’s the machines money!” Otherwise you will be tempted to dip into that account when times are hard.

I know it sucks! It’s part of the game. We will need repairs. **shrugg**

My F2000 had over $12K in repairs in the first 2 years of ownership. Would you consider $6K+ per year an acceptable annual repair cost on a $25K printer?

There is a reason so many used F2000s are for sale these days and going cheap. People are washing their hands of them because when you combine a high failure rate with ridiculous repair costs, it's simply not feasible to own one.

 

[ssmedia7]

My F2000 had over $12K in repairs in the first 2 years of ownership. Would you consider $6K+ per year an acceptable annual repair cost on a $25K printer?

There is a reason so many used F2000s are for sale these days and going cheap. People are washing their hands of them because when you combine a high failure rate with ridiculous repair costs, it's simply not feasible to own one.

And that’s my point... you need to budget, per sale, for your warranty. You think it’s just Epson and it’s not. Join some of the DTG groups on Facebook and you see that it doesn’t matter if you have a Freejet 330, Brother, Anajet, Viper or any of the others... they all have Printhead issues, wet cap issues, and other stuff. If you are setting money aside for the purchase of your renewed warranty then you will be fine.

Your problem isn’t the repair cost. Your problem is the lack of sales for DTG! Sales will fix everything. Make yourself a student of sales and online marketing. Get on YouTube. Watch some Grant Cardone. If you increase your sales then the cost of the warranty won’t matter.

The reason I went with Epson over the other DTG machines out there IS because they were the only company (wait... Brother does this as well) that will send a tech out to do the repairs. My friend has a Freejet 330 and it has had two new Print heads in 1.5 years and another issue. They shipped him his parts and Skyped with him so he could do the repairs. The price of their warranty? $1750! Yup! And HE does the repairs... not them. So, yeah I picked the Epson because my job is to do sales and marketing. Not to be a repair person.

My friend... your problem isn’t the Printer and the price of the warranty. It’s the lack of sales. Fix the sales issue and the price tag on the warranty will no longer be an issue.


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[Mammath]

And that’s my point... you need to budget, per sale, for your warranty. You think it’s just Epson and it’s not. Join some of the DTG groups on Facebook and you see that it doesn’t matter if you have a Freejet 330, Brother, Anajet, Viper or any of the others... they all have Printhead issues, wet cap issues, and other stuff. If you are setting money aside for the purchase of your renewed warranty then you will be fine.

Your problem isn’t the repair cost. Your problem is the lack of sales for DTG! Sales will fix everything. Make yourself a student of sales and online marketing. Get on YouTube. Watch some Grant Cardone. If you increase your sales then the cost of the warranty won’t matter.

The reason I went with Epson over the other DTG machines out there IS because they were the only company (wait... Brother does this as well) that will send a tech out to do the repairs. My friend has a Freejet 330 and it has had two new Print heads in 1.5 years and another issue. They shipped him his parts and Skyped with him so he could do the repairs. The price of their warranty? $1750! Yup! And HE does the repairs... not them. So, yeah I picked the Epson because my job is to do sales and marketing. Not to be a repair person.

My friend... your problem isn’t the Printer and the price of the warranty. It’s the lack of sales. Fix the sales issue and the price tag on the warranty will no longer be an issue.

Oh my. You assume way too much. Take that crystal ball you're using to make these ridiculous assumptions back the place of purchase, it doesn't work! lol

What would you know about my turnover? Sales? Profit? I've been running my own business for 17 years printing clothing. My sales have nothing to do with the failure rate and cost of repairs of the F2000. SMH.

I paid $4.5K for the 2yr extended warranty but that's not the point. The principle of the issue is the F2000 high failure rate and exorbitant cost of repairs! Once out of warranty the F2000 is not feasible to own.

And if you want to use comparative reasoning to make the F2000 look good, how much is a new head for Freejet compared to the F2000? Half the price!
Being able to work on the printer is a massive plus for other machines over the F2000, it's not a negative. The reason you don't work on the F2000 is because no user can without the Epson service software!

Join some of the DTG groups on Facebook? Yea, I should do that... lol

 

[ssmedia7]

Actually, I agree with you that it does not make sense to own the F2000 without a warranty. I think the difference between your view point and mine is that I believe ALL of the DTG machines on the market make ABSOLUTELY no sense to own without a warranty! I don’t care what brand it is! I have friends (that own their businesses) and all of us have different brands. Literally, everyone has had a problem or two and everyone thinks their warranty cost too much and their out of warranty repairs cost too much. I have no special respect for any brand. As far as I am concerned anyone willing to put in the time to figure out the settings and unique characteristics of any DTG machine can produce great images. So for me, the only difference is who does the repairs. Your issues with the F2000 would be the same for any other DTG machine that is out of warranty. Because of this, that is why I said “sales” will fix the issue. That’s with any machine.

Yes... the Freejet Printhead Is half the price but the monthly flushes cost 30x’s the price of Epsons daily flush. They all have trade offs. One is cheaper in this area and more expensive in another. The ONLY thing that equalizes it all is good DTG sales and putting a portion of that aside for next years warranty.

You missed my point earlier or I didn’t articulate it well. I agreed with all you said. I just know they all have issues and it’s expensive no matter what brand you go with. At the end of the day the question is, can you put enough to the bottom line to over and way above your cost to justify owning ANY brand of DTG?


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[Mammath]

Actually, I agree with you that it does not make sense to own the F2000 without a warranty. I think the difference between your view point and mine is that I believe ALL of the DTG machines on the market make ABSOLUTELY no sense to own without a warranty! I don’t care what brand it is! I have friends (that own their businesses) and all of us have different brands. Literally, everyone has had a problem or two and everyone thinks their warranty cost too much and their out of warranty repairs cost too much. I have no special respect for any brand. As far as I am concerned anyone willing to put in the time to figure out the settings and unique characteristics of any DTG machine can produce great images. So for me, the only difference is who does the repairs. Your issues with the F2000 would be the same for any other DTG machine that is out of warranty. Because of this, that is why I said “sales” will fix the issue. That’s with any machine.

Yes... the Freejet Printhead Is half the price but the monthly flushes cost 30x’s the price of Epsons daily flush. They all have trade offs. One is cheaper in this area and more expensive in another. The ONLY thing that equalizes it all is good DTG sales and putting a portion of that aside for next years warranty.

You missed my point earlier or I didn’t articulate it well. I agreed with all you said. I just know they all have issues and it’s expensive no matter what brand you go with. At the end of the day the question is, can you put enough to the bottom line to over and way above your cost to justify owning ANY brand of DTG?

Makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to own ANY DTG printer out of warranty? I really think that is only relative to the F2000... because it's designed that way. It's disposable.

It's designed for the 'big DTG player business model', the large houses that run hundreds of F2000s. They change-out their printers every 3 years, and they have no repair bill in that time-frame due to the Epson warranty. But how does that 'disposable mentality' relate to F2000 small business owners?

Sales! The big houses run 24/7, huge turnover, massive sales! And no doubt some pretty sweet kick-backs... so smaller overheads. But the small business model is completely different.

I would see a lot less threads like this one, on FB, and especially in the FB F2000 users group, if Epson didn't market their disposable printer to small business. The small business owner still looks for longevity in their investment. Comparing the F2000 with DTG printers like the Freejet does not do the F2000 any favours when we get to that small business model.

I'm not sure where you're getting your info' but the Freejet does not require a monthly flush. Plus the cost of ink is dramatically cheaper. F2000 inks are well over twice the price of Dupont!

It is not the same for all DTG printers out of warranty. F2000 owners out of warranty cannot work on the printer without the Epson Service Software, which is unavailable. So one is stuck paying a tech an expensive call-out fee, then $100 an hour to **** around, and the F2000 parts are double the price compared to Epson-based printers.

Here's an 'out of warranty scenario' for the small business model. The Epson-based DTG printer owner down the road from the F2000 owner, is creating prints for less than half the price in consumables, and fixing their printer themselves for half the price. They can do this year after year. Meanwhile the F2000 owner is spending $2k per year on extended warranty/repairs and forking out another $25K every 3 years for a new printer.

You're damn right F2000 owners need to increase sales...

 

[DrivingZiggy]

I'm not sure where you're getting your info' but the Freejet does not require a monthly flush. Plus the cost of ink is dramatically cheaper. F2000 inks are well over twice the price of Dupont!

Yes... the Freejet Printhead Is half the price but the monthly flushes cost 30x’s the price of Epsons daily flush.

I don't know how this got to be a pi$$ing contest, but (Mammath) you should at least read what ssmedia7 has to say before you accuse him of something.

 

[Mammath]

I don't know how this got to be a pi$$ing contest, but (Mammath) you should at least read what ssmedia7 has to say before you accuse him of something.

It's called a discussion, and I have no idea what you're referring to.

Do you have something to add to the discussion about the topic?

 

[PatWibble]

It's designed for the 'big DTG player business model', the large houses that run hundreds of F2000s. They change-out their printers every 3 years, and they have no repair bill in that time-frame due to the Epson warranty. But how does that 'disposable mentality' relate to F2000 small business owners?

Probably the most accurate comment I have ever read regarding the F2000.

It is the ideal product to get on leasing. The warranty and the leasing company cover the maintenance and repair.
Offset the leasing against tax for three years, put a dollar (or £) a garment toward paying for it.

At the end of three years buy it from the leasing company for next to nothing and run it till it breaks. At least you will have some spares for the next one.

If you can't pay for it a dollar a shirt then it is probably not the machine for you - if you can then you have had your moneys worth.

Epson only sell the product through a very limited number of specialist trade suppliers. I agree that they are making a mistake by selling it through some suppliers who sell it to low volume print shops.

 

[DrivingZiggy]

I have no idea what you're referring to.

I even quoted so that you could see what I was referring to. However, upon re-reading it looks like I may have either taken something the wrong way or misread it. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive.

Sorry.

 

[SublimatorToo]

This discussion is very interesting and simultaneously curious to me.

It sounds very familiar to all the issues which I encounter with sublimation when comparing price and performance of Epson printers to others.

In the past, the Epsons lacked reliable longevity. The print heads were the issue and repairs were almost equal to purchasing a new machine. We're talking the 4000, 4800 series machines here. Ink cost is another story all unto its own.

For my small stuff, I changed to Ricoh. Those problems were replaced by another. The machines would just suddenly die while printing. Nothing would save them and repair was not worth it.

Situation now is that I am using Epson printers, with the latest totally failing at 10 months and a replacement being less expensive than a new print head. Chuck that sucker and move along with a new machine. Life expectancy? Don't know and don't much care since there is nothing that can be done to change things.

What's confusing to me is how do you pay for a DTG machine that costs $20,000 when it will never print enough shirts to cover its cost? And even if it did, it takes so long to do each that you'll never live long enough to make that many.

Pretreat. Print. Heat cure. All very labor intensive. Is labor free? That time is your life, my friends. Don't forget it. It's the one non-renewable resource and you have no idea how much you've got.

Well, even if you did manage to make the shirts, where will you possibly find 20,000 DTG shirt buyers? Screened shirts OK. Maybe. Here in Canada? Know anymore jokes? And at the higher cost of DTG, where? And add a buck in price to the cost of each? You think a bulk buyer will just bend over and take that? And given the production time, do you think the bulk buyer will sit around twidling his thumbs while you are fiddling trying to keep that blasted machine running?

You want a bank of these money sucking demons? Well, each must be able to produce enough to carry its freight. You can't rely on others in pool doing it for a dud as well as itself.

I've always seen this DTG stuff as impractical. It's like the suppliers selling equipment to the gold prospectors. The only ones who made any money were the equipment sellers.

I know there's lots of money in sublimation. I put it there. And I'm certain that the same holds true for DTG with you guys, especially those running Epson printers.

 

[gatorGRAFIX]

Not sure I want to sub on only poly shirts. That's my call I guess.

My F2000 has enhanced my t-shirt shop and brought in new business that includes new screen print customers a swell as new vinyl sign customers. My whole front room is plastered with gorgeous DTG printed tees. Word got around and the DTG stuff brings customers in and these customers get presented with even more options.

Of course my 30 years in the business in my town backs my reputation and that helps too.

With a (any good) DTG it's not always just about how many prints you'll make to try and recoup every penny spent buying it. It can be about so much more.

 

[ssmedia7]

This discussion is very interesting and simultaneously curious to me.

It sounds very familiar to all the issues which I encounter with sublimation when comparing price and performance of Epson printers to others.

In the past, the Epsons lacked reliable longevity. The print heads were the issue and repairs were almost equal to purchasing a new machine. We're talking the 4000, 4800 series machines here. Ink cost is another story all unto its own.

For my small stuff, I changed to Ricoh. Those problems were replaced by another. The machines would just suddenly die while printing. Nothing would save them and repair was not worth it.

Situation now is that I am using Epson printers, with the latest totally failing at 10 months and a replacement being less expensive than a new print head. Chuck that sucker and move along with a new machine. Life expectancy? Don't know and don't much care since there is nothing that can be done to change things.

What's confusing to me is how do you pay for a DTG machine that costs $20,000 when it will never print enough shirts to cover its cost? And even if it did, it takes so long to do each that you'll never live long enough to make that many.

Pretreat. Print. Heat cure. All very labor intensive. Is labor free? That time is your life, my friends. Don't forget it. It's the one non-renewable resource and you have no idea how much you've got.

Well, even if you did manage to make the shirts, where will you possibly find 20,000 DTG shirt buyers? Screened shirts OK. Maybe. Here in Canada? Know anymore jokes? And at the higher cost of DTG, where? And add a buck in price to the cost of each? You think a bulk buyer will just bend over and take that? And given the production time, do you think the bulk buyer will sit around twidling his thumbs while you are fiddling trying to keep that blasted machine running?

You want a bank of these money sucking demons? Well, each must be able to produce enough to carry its freight. You can't rely on others in pool doing it for a dud as well as itself.

I've always seen this DTG stuff as impractical. It's like the suppliers selling equipment to the gold prospectors. The only ones who made any money were the equipment sellers.

I know there's lots of money in sublimation. I put it there. And I'm certain that the same holds true for DTG with you guys, especially those running Epson printers.

The way I make money with DTG is by selling the shirts $15-$35 each... sometimes more depending on the detail. For retail, we do 150-300 shirts a week. I know other shops that are cranking 500-1000 a week using either the Freejet 330 or the Epson F2000. All three of them are small mom and pop shops that sell through the front door and online. Also, My F2000 cost $15k. Not the $20k everyone else is talking about. That’s going price for a new one today.

If you buy a DTG then you should have a plan and that plan shouldn’t be based solely on people walking through the front door.

In regards to Sublimation... my Ricoh 7700 has been going for 4.5 years without a problem. I purchased a Epson 6200 that lasted 3 or 3.5 years. It paid for itself in the first 6 months. So, I purchased a 6070. Maybe it will last just as long but I got it this past January and it’s paid for itself too. I just believe ANY equipment will break down at some point and you should get their money back within the first 6 months. Or at least try.


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[gatorGRAFIX]

Wow. Nice informative and inspiring post Michael. Thanks.

 

[ssmedia7]

Wow. Nice informative and inspiring post Michael. Thanks.

Lol. I know... I actually started to disregard posting it and thought.. “what the heck... you already typed it!”

I don’t know man. I use to complain about all these machines and the break downs and I guess some where along the way my mental shifted into it 1) put a few dollars away every month for “when” they break down and 2) be happy for what I did get out of them. I read your post... take notes from other people then go make money and be happy. Wait... starting to ramble again. Never mind. Lol.


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[ssmedia7]

Wow. Nice informative and inspiring post Michael. Thanks.

Lol. I know... I actually started to disregard posting it and thought.. “what the heck... you already typed it!”

I don’t know man. I use to complain about all these machines and the break downs and I guess some where along the way my mental shifted into it 1) put a few dollars away every month for “when” they break down and 2) be happy for what I did get out of them. I read your post... take notes from other people then go make money and be happy. Wait... starting to ramble again. Never mind. Lol.


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