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Thanks for keeping this a civil discussion guys :)

To answer the original question, from what I've seen, most screen printers let you bring in your own shirts.

As squirts mentioned, some discourage it for the misprint issue. As JayAllen mentioned, some mark the printing prices up more to help cover their profit margin. As COS said, some will give you the same price either way.

Not all screen printers keep the shirts they print on on hand in their shop. They order them wholesale at the time you order. I think some people might have a misconception that they can get lower prices that the screen printer, which is not always the case.

A screen printer can order wholesale from proclub, alternative apparel, american apparel as well. Often times they can get better pricing than an individual or smaller company because a blank manufacturers know that decorators (screen printers/embroiders) are their big customer.

So after a customer buys some shirts wholesale, then pays shipping to get them to their doorstep and then reships them to the printer, you really have to pay attention to the costs to make sure it's still "less expensive".
 
You post crazy numbers as fact....invite people to check out your crazy numbers....and then cop an attitude when your own printer just laughs at the numbers you posted. I have no issues with your point that printers will print on supplied shirts. I suspect that MOST printers will. I still stand by my statement that most printers will have a different (higher) print charge for supplied garments.

Whatever.....I will chalk this thread up to the exurberance of youth. I too remember a time when I knew everything. The point of boards like these is to post helpful information.....not get in a pissing contest.

[edit: edited out rude comments]

Again....go to http://boards.screenprinters.net/ and ask REAL screenprinters about their policies....then come back and report to this board what you find. You will not only get answers completely opposite what you post here....you'll get the REASONS why printers generally charge more for printing supplied garment.

[edit: edited out rude comments]
 
Good points, Rodney.

Back when I was selling shirts at events, I could go to the local shirt wholesaler, pick up some shirts in my SUV, drive them to the screen printer and ALWAYS beat them on the shirt prices. They were getting their shirts from the same place I was and wanted twice as much for them. Since they didn't charge for me supplying the shirts, it was a no brainer!

I think there are lots of screen printers that will let customers bring in there own shirts and not charge them extra for doing so. I also think there are enough that do this that it is not considered "out of the norm". That's been my only point.
 
Comin'OutSwingin said:
Good points, Rodney.

Back when I was selling shirts at events, I could go to the local shirt wholesaler, pick up some shirts in my SUV, drive them to the screen printer and ALWAYS beat them on the shirt prices. They were getting their shirts from the same place I was and wanted twice as much for them. Since they didn't charge for me supplying the shirts, it was a no brainer!

I think there are lots of screen printers that will let customers bring in there own shirts and not charge them extra for doing so. I also think there are enough that do this that it is not considered "out of the norm". That's been my only point.
No....that wasn't your only point. I think you used the term "shady" to describe any printer that had a different printing charge for supplied garments. You then posted fantasy numbers about your printing costs.

It isn't "shady" to charge differently for supplied garments. To suggest that it is shows a complete lack of understanding of the business.

Again....not trying to be a jerk, but at least own up to what you post.
 
Okay, fine. That was my MAIN point. I did state my OPINION about charging a customer extra because you can't make money off of selling them shirts. But I wasn't trying to make a point about that, I was just stating my opinion on the matter. I don't think it shows a lack of understanding of the business. I understand it very well. I DO think it is shady to say the price of the printing for your job is $100 plus the price of the shirts. Thenm ake the price of the printing $130 (or whatever) if I bring in my own shirts. I just created LESS work for you. Why charge me more for the printing! They can't make enough money in the business they are supposedly in (printing on shirts) so they want to make some "extra" money by ALSO being in the business of selling shirts. Just because that's they some companies do business and YOU see nothing wrong with it, does not mean that I'm wrong by thinking it is a shady practice. You have your opinion on the matter. I have mine. Back to the ORIGINAL point to answering the poster's question. I answered that. THAT was my point for posting and the point I've been trying to make all along. Yes, there are printers out there that let you bring your own shirts for printing, and don't charge one red cent extra for it. I would much rather do business with these companies than ones that don't. My preference, my prerogative. And I do! You have a different view of companies that charge extra. It doesn't change the fact about THE point I've been trying to make about the ORIGINAL question.

It is the same way with companies that ship products. Lots of them make money on shipping. That's fine. But if I can go down to the local shirt wholesaler and pick up my shirts. I don't want to pay extra for those shirts because they couldn't make any money off of the shipping charges. Doesn't make much sense. I don't see how that's any different than screen printers charging extra on their services when you don't allow them to make money from selling you shirts.

As for the numbers. You aksed for what they were. You were the one going off on tangents about all sorts of things. Companies I do business with going out of business because of their practices, how much I pay for my printing, my mechanic marking up prices on parts, bringing my own steak to a restaurant. I didn't care about the numbers. I wasn't making ANY point about numbers. YOU asked. I answered. You didn't like the answer. I wasn't making a point about numbers, prices, or costs. That was you doing the asking about it. Not me offering or trying to make a point about it. I never have a problem owning up to what I post. On each post I made, I was trying to make the point about printers letting you bring your own shirts. For some reason you wanted to focus on other things. I don't know why. But all along my point has been the same. Maybe you just misunderstood my points.
 
Comin'OutSwingin said:
Okay, fine. That was my MAIN point. I did state my OPINION about charging a customer extra because you can't make money off of selling them shirts. But I wasn't trying to make a point about that, I was just stating my opinion on the matter. I don't think it shows a lack of understanding of the business. I understand it very well. I DO think it is shady to say the price of the printing for your job is $100 plus the price of the shirts. Thenm ake the price of the printing $130 (or whatever) if I bring in my own shirts. I just created LESS work for you. Why charge me more for the printing! They can't make enough money in the business they are supposedly in (printing on shirts) so they want to make some "extra" money by ALSO being in the business of selling shirts. Just because that's they some companies do business and YOU see nothing wrong with it, does not mean that I'm wrong by thinking it is a shady practice. You have your opinion on the matter. I have mine. Back to the ORIGINAL point to answering the poster's question. I answered that. THAT was my point for posting and the point I've been trying to make all along. Yes, there are printers out there that let you bring your own shirts for printing, and don't charge one red cent extra for it. I would much rather do business with these companies than ones that don't. My preference, my prerogative. And I do! You have a different view of companies that charge extra. It doesn't change the fact about THE point I've been trying to make about the ORIGINAL question.

It is the same way with companies that ship products. Lots of them make money on shipping. That's fine. But if I can go down to the local shirt wholesaler and pick up my shirts. I don't want to pay extra for those shirts because they couldn't make any money off of the shipping charges. Doesn't make much sense. I don't see how that's any different than screen printers charging extra on their services when you don't allow them to make money from selling you shirts.

As for the numbers. You aksed for what they were. I wasn't making ANY point about numbers. You asked. I answered. You didn't like the answer. I wasn't making a point about numbers, prices, or costs. That was you doing the asking about it. Not me offering or trying to make a point about it. I never have a problem owning up to what I post. Maybe you just misunderstood my points.
OK.....I vote to end the brawl. I'm sure you are a decent guy with no ill intent. Sorry if I got a little harsh. Seriously.....if you need help with more Pool info give me a call sometime. I'm actually pretty easy to get along with.....really.
 
jay allen said:
OK.....I vote to end the brawl.
I'll second that!

jay allen said:
Seriously.....if you need help with more Pool info give me a call sometime.
I will definitely be bending your ear about the Pool stuff!;)

jay allen said:
I'm actually pretty easy to get along with.....really.
I'm sure you are.:)
Believe it or not, so am I.:D
 
Comin'OutSwingin said:
I have never encountered this. The printing prices have always been the same whether I supply the shirts or not. Also, it saves LOTS of $$$$!!!!!!!
Unfortunately I've seen a lot of places charge more for printing if you supply your own shirts - I think it's very common. Generally speaking (in my experience) the places that do that also have so much markup on the cost of their shirts that it would still be cheaper to supply your own, even with the jacked up printing costs.
 
jay allen said:
Screenprinters that stay in business need to make a certain amount of money per hour that they are operating their machinery. The cost of the shirts, plus whatever markup they get, is all figured into the equation. This isn't shady, or even unfair, it is just the way it works.
It is totally shady, and totally unfair. It is also often the way it works, but it stinks.

Clearly printers need to make a certain amount of money as you say, but that should be done in explicitly stated screen charges, printing charges, etc. and not hidden away inside the costs of a separate retail service (i.e. supplying shirts). When a printer says it costs $3 per shirt to print on 72 Hanes Beefy Tees supplied by them, and $3.50 per shirt to print on 72 Hanes Beefy Tees supplied by you... they are engaging in shady business practices. Print costs should be based on how much it costs to print. Personally I think COS's analogy to businesses hiding profit in inflated shipping costs is a good one. It's dishonest.

They have a right to make money and charge the rates they choose, but those rates should be consistent and visible.

jay allen said:
I can tell you that there is no money to be made by charging someone $1 per shirt to print.
So don't charge someone $1 per shirt to print.
 
Solmu said:
It is totally shady, and totally unfair. It is also often the way it works, but it stinks.

Clearly printers need to make a certain amount of money as you say, but that should be done in explicitly stated screen charges, printing charges, etc. and not hidden away inside the costs of a separate retail service (i.e. supplying shirts). When a printer says it costs $3 per shirt to print on 72 Hanes Beefy Tees supplied by them, and $3.50 per shirt to print on 72 Hanes Beefy Tees supplied by you... they are engaging in shady business practices. Print costs should be based on how much it costs to print. Personally I think COS's analogy to businesses hiding profit in inflated shipping costs is a good one. It's dishonest.

They have a right to make money and charge the rates they choose, but those rates should be consistent and visible.



So don't charge someone $1 per shirt to print.
If a printer agrees to print 72 Beefy T's, and for whatever reason screws up a couple shirts, you never hear about it.....he just makes it good out of his pocket. If you supply the T's the same thing happens, but it just causes much more hassle.The increased printing charge on supplied T's is to allow for this.

The majority of screen printers have small shops and work their asses off trying to please every wingnut that want's something for nothing. Let me ask you.....how many wealthy screen printers do you know? Is the guy that does your printing driving a BMW, and have a huge house on the ocean? You'll probably answer....yes, but the fact is, the vast majority are just making a living. To imply they are getting wealthy off the backs of unsuspecting t-shirt guys is laughable.

BTW...I DON'T charge people $1 per shirt to print. I don't print for anyone but myself. People have no idea what is involved in screen printing, they don't respect the work it takes, and in general are a complete pain in the ***. I would suggest that you spend a few days washing out screens, pulling a squeegee, etc, etc, before posting anyting else about how shady screen printers are. You would have a new found respect for the process if you did that....not to mention a real foundation for future posting.
 
jay allen said:
If a printer agrees to print 72 Beefy T's, and for whatever reason screws up a couple shirts, you never hear about it.....he just makes it good out of his pocket. If you supply the T's the same thing happens, but it just causes much more hassle.The increased printing charge on supplied T's is to allow for this.
I admit this is the one thing I was thinking on earlier which makes me think twice.

Ultimately, I decided it's a shady practice anyway because the buyer isn't aware that this is what is going on. Businesses should aim for transparency and honesty with their customer-base. Essentially what you're talking about is hidden compulsory f**k up insurance. i.e. you pay an extra 50c a shirt, and if the printer f**ks up, they make it right.

Printers could always split the difference - if they want to charge $3 and $3.50 for example they could just charge $3.25 on both. If they are making costly mistakes they're going to be making them whether you supply the shirts or they do, so either way it's eating into their profit margins. Whether we're wearing it or they are is up to them, but there's no reason the printer's policy shouldn't be consistent across store supplied and customer supplied shirts.

Ultimately I'm talking about simplifying the fees so that they are easier for customers to understand and there are no hidden levies. If a customer sees the price to print 72 shirts, that should be the price to print 72 shirts regardless of where they came from. The idea that the printer would need to charge them more in case they screw up is not going to occur to most customers (if any).

A customer wouldn't expect to be charged a levy in case the printer tears a screen, needs to re-burn artwork, misplaces a case of t-shirts, or has an unusually high electricity bill this month - those are costs that would be incorporated into overall fee structures, and shouldn't change based on the source of the textiles. Why should this one be any different?

I know the motivation of the printer is not shady, they're just covering their costs as you say, but the image they are creating in the minds of their customers is shady, because it just looks like price gouging (and hey, in some cases because it is just price gouging).

I am curious though - what's the average number of screw ups in a print run anyway? Is it even going to cost a printer that much? Obviously if you're using expensive garments you've potentially got a problem, but assuming for a moment we're talking about a fairly standard wholesale t-shirt line got at good prices. How many shirts would the average decent printer ruin per 100? I simply have absolutely no idea. Mistakes happen occasionally - but I would have thought they'd be rare enough that it's not going be that much of an issue.

jay allen said:
Let me ask you.....how many wealthy screen printers do you know? Is the guy that does your printing driving a BMW, and have a huge house on the ocean? You'll probably answer....yes, but the fact is, the vast majority are just making a living. To imply they are getting wealthy off the backs of unsuspecting t-shirt guys is laughable.
I didn't imply they were getting wealthy, so much as that it's a dishonest way to cover their costs.

Obviously I do know of some printers who have gotten extremely rich off what they do, and likewise I'm sure I'd have no problem finding a few that either barely get by or will be forced to declare bankruptcy. That's all beside the point - I'm not complaining about the amount of money they make, I am complaining about the method they use to make it.

jay allen said:
BTW...I DON'T charge people $1 per shirt to print.
I'm quite sure you don't, and yet it's the figure you used.

It's precisely because shirts don't cost $1/shirt to print that it shouldn't be necessary to inflate the costs in this way. If the cost was that low, it would be hard to make up the difference in lost revenue. Since it's not, it could easily be made back by increasing screen setup charges across the board (or a different fee - but consistently).

jay allen said:
I would suggest that you spend a few days washing out screens, pulling a squeegee, etc, etc, before posting anyting else about how shady screen printers are. You would have a new found respect for the process if you did that....not to mention a real foundation for future posting.
And I would suggest that you stop being so sanctimonious.

Not to re-open old wounds, but this is precisely what COS was talking about when he said you overstep your bounds in making so many assumptions about people. Your presumption and condescension is extremely rude and entirely unwelcome.

As it happens I'm a student screenprinter. That means I'm an extremely bad printer with a lot to learn, but washing out screens, coating screens, pulling a squeegee and "the process" is not, in fact, new to me.

It is clear that you have a lot to offer the forum members in the way of expertise (your Pool tips were interesting and showed a lot more depth than any other post on a trade show has here), but you need to learn that not everyone here is entirely ignorant either.
 
I wasn't implying that you, or anyone else, was ignorant. I was, however, pointing out that you were wrong. There is a big difference......one, I'm sure, that with a little thought, you can discern.

The only thing I know about you is that you are from Australia. Lets suppose for a moment I said, knowing very little about Australians, that you were all red headed, verbose, pricks. But I said it with authority...and backed it up with pages of well written posts....that, in my mind, proved that all Australians were red head, verbose, pricks. Are you getting my point yet...... See I have no basis for making a statement like that as I've never been to Australia. Furthermore, if someone from Australia suggested that I was wrong, explained why I was wrong, and generally tried to show me the error of my ways....I might eventually listen. Evidently that isn't how it works here.

To hear that you are learning the screenprinting trade is absolutely ****ing beautiful. What we are talking about here is practically an industry standard. It isn't an industry standard for no reason. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it shady, unethical, or wrong. Believe me, if you decide to stay in the business and eventually open your own shop....you will understand it.

BTW.....You can quit pissing in the corner here. I know this your turf.....newcomers must earn their stripes and all that. Nothing I have said has been sanctamonious. I have responded to ill informed comments from people that probably meant no harm...but clearly didn't understand the issue at hand. If this forum is to be taken seriously I would suggest posters know something about the topics they address.....and not jump people who try to help. I encourage you to print out your eloquent post......tack it up on your wall.....keep going to screen printing school......and contact me in a few years when you understand the trade. We can both have a chuckle about it then.
 
jay allen said:
I wasn't implying that you, or anyone else, was ignorant. I was, however, pointing out that you were wrong.
You implied the reason I was wrong was because I knew nothing of screenprinting, i.e. ignorance.

jay allen said:
What we are talking about here is practically an industry standard. It isn't an industry standard for no reason. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it shady, unethical, or wrong. Believe me, if you decide to stay in the business and eventually open your own shop....you will understand it.
I never disputed that it was a common practice. Just because it's often done, doesn't mean it's right (or even sensible). You said yourself not many printers are wealthy, and it's because they take for granted stupid things like this. It costs them business. Do that in enough stupid little ways, and they go broke.

I've argued a case for why it is unnecessary, inconsistent, and ultimately harmful to a business's image. You haven't convinced me, and I would argue any bystanders, of why this viewpoint is so wrong.

jay allen said:
BTW.....You can quit pissing in the corner here. I know this your turf.....newcomers must earn their stripes and all that.
Not my turf sadly. I wouldn't need to watch my language so much if it was :p Rest assured if I step out of line Rodney will smite me, and smite me good.

jay allen said:
Nothing I have said has been sanctamonious.
Let's just rewind the tape there shall we:

People have no idea what is involved in screen printing, they don't respect the work it takes, and in general are a complete pain in the ***. I would suggest that you spend a few days washing out screens, pulling a squeegee, etc, etc, before posting anyting else about how shady screen printers are. You would have a new found respect for the process if you did that....not to mention a real foundation for future posting.
Yeah... I definitely beg to differ. In fact I think sanctimonious was me being extremely polite.

Personally I think I made my point quite well. If the cost of failed shirts is incurred in both cases, it should be treated the same in both cases. You've failed to address the issue at all - your entire argument rests on the notion that screen printers deserve to make a living, and a bunch of stretched analogies about steaks, work experience, and a round about tirade in which you tried to call me a long winded prick without having the decency to just come right out and say it. It is self evident that printers have the right to earn a living. That doesn't mean that a common industry practice isn't, to fall back on a perfectly suited term, "shady".

jay allen said:
Furthermore, if someone from Australia suggested that I was wrong, explained why I was wrong, and generally tried to show me the error of my ways....I might eventually listen. Evidently that isn't how it works here.
I did that in the last post. You ignored it in favour of addressing the fact that we don't like each other. A more interesting topic of conversation for you perhaps, but nowhere near as productive for anyone I can assure you.

If you're so sure I'm simply misunderstanding the issue, why don't you explain it better? Why didn't you address a single one of the points I made? Why not answer the question about how many mistakes are actually made, and therefore how relevant a surcharge would be? Are we failing to appreciate just how many f**kups a printer makes, or is there actually very little money lost in that area?
 
Closing this thread.

In case you missed my hints, this is a friendly forum :)

If you want to mix it up and go back and forth in a battle of wits, please take it off board.

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