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When I setup my files to be sent off to have my sublimation sheets made, do I set the file up as a RGB file or CMYK? I am wanting to try out S&K and I'm not sure what color profile I should use. Any help?
CMYK or RGB for sublimation?
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I use SawGrass Ink and during the installation, they said to use RGB. Works great for me!
Sawgrass Technologies - Installation and Configuration
Sawgrass Technologies - Installation and Configuration
What printer and inks you use? I maybe wrong here and if so please correct me but to me using RGB is pointless since the color gamut has a large portion that is not possible to achieve with typical dye sublimation inks (the new neon colors are changing this a little). I have not seen a color gamut chart showing that the achievable sublimation gamut is wider than the CMYK so how do you get a better blue on the product (not on the screen) using RGB?
Unless you have a RIP system or using a Postscript printer then use RGB as your workspace.
First of all supplied sublimation profiles are in RGB and inkjet printers are RGB devices and need RGB files. This is per both Adobe and Epson ...
Reference:
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?infoType=News&oid=94511¬eoid=92205
"Optimize your images
Your image files should be in RGB (red, green, and blue) format. If you saved your images in CMYK (cyan, magenta, yellow, and black) format you will need to convert the files back to RGB before printing them. Your printer software is designed to print from RGB files. For the best results, create your original print files in RGB format. "
http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/using/printing-photoshop1.html
"About desktop printing
Unless you work in a commercial printing company or service bureau, you probably print images to a desktop printer, such as an inkjet, dye sublimation, or laser printer, not to an imagesetter. Photoshop lets you control how your image is printed.
Monitors display images using light, whereas desktop printers reproduce images using inks, dyes, or pigments. For this reason, a desktop printer can’t reproduce all the colors displayed on a monitor. However, by incorporating certain procedures (such as a color management system) into your workflow, you can achieve predictable results when printing your images to a desktop printer. Keep these considerations in mind when working with an image you intend to print:
- If your image is in RGB mode, do not convert the document to CMYK mode when printing to a desktop printer. Work entirely in RGB mode. As a rule, desktop printers are configured to accept RGB data and use internal software to convert to CMYK. If you send CMYK data, most desktop printers apply a conversion anyway, with unpredictable results.
I only use CMYK color mode and use a 3110.
Conde told me to use RGB color mode but I could not get the quality of colors I needed and switched to CMYK. My artwork typically can use 30-50 different colors so it's not simple art and my colors are extremely important.
I never understood why a printer that uses CYMK ink should receive artwork in RGB. I guess it is in the driver software and is technical stuff. All I know is what works for me to give me the quality I need.
Conde told me to use RGB color mode but I could not get the quality of colors I needed and switched to CMYK. My artwork typically can use 30-50 different colors so it's not simple art and my colors are extremely important.
I never understood why a printer that uses CYMK ink should receive artwork in RGB. I guess it is in the driver software and is technical stuff. All I know is what works for me to give me the quality I need.
Any photo you use would not be accurate. Spot colors can be made accurate.
You are likely not setting things up correctly with your ICC.
You should read this ...
CMYK & RGB Color Charts - MultiRIP Sublimation, Transfers, Photograph and Direct-to-Garment Printing RIP Softwares
CMYK is for Postscript printers or if you use RIP software (which do the conversion correctly).
http://www.wmich.edu/pci/faculty/Publication/fleming/TAGA 2006 paper_final version.pdf
"Most printer technologies are based on CMYK inks (or extensions based on
“light” versions of C, M and possibly K). Inkjet printers can however be treated
as either RGB or CMYK devices. When vendor supplied printer driver software
is used, the inkjet printer is considered to be an RGB device. The user sends the
device an RGB image and the native printer driver performs the “secret sauce”
conversion from RGB to CMYK. This is common in photography and designerbased
workflows. In CMYK workflows, such as in prepress and proofing, the
user may employ raster image processor (RIP) software and in this instance the
device is considered to be a CMYK printer. When a printer is used via its own
printer driver software, it is treated as an RGB device and the same printer when
using third-party RIP software operates as a CMYK device. The choice of how
to treat an output device will depend on workflow and configuration of printing
system hardware and software (Sharma, 2004). In this research we describe the
relative merits of these two approaches and compare the different color gamuts
and linearization behavior achieved"http://www.peachpit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1315593&seqNum=9
http://gicleeofnewengland.com/2011/06/color-mode-rgb-vs-cmyk/
http://smallbusiness.chron.com/printer-rip-57507.html
I don't use photos, I create my own artwork and sublimate it.
I've read article after article year in and year out but it doesn't change the fact that for "me" using CYMK color mode gives me better colors that I can not get in RGB. So all science aside it seems CYMK works just fine.
I have spoken with Wasatch and they also say there is no reason you can not use CYMK color mode with their RIP Software even though most people use RGB.
I've read article after article year in and year out but it doesn't change the fact that for "me" using CYMK color mode gives me better colors that I can not get in RGB. So all science aside it seems CYMK works just fine.
I have spoken with Wasatch and they also say there is no reason you can not use CYMK color mode with their RIP Software even though most people use RGB.
Yes, you can use CMYK with RIP software, that is what I have been saying all the time.
Some RIP software supports both. I have been saying if you use a non postscript printer and don't use a RIP use RGB, so your comment about Wasatch ???? I can match color just fine, photos or spot color, even most Pantone.
100% sure you were not setup correctly if you can't use RGB. I have been sublimating since the beginning of it.
My money says since you are doing your artwork, if you were to take corporate artwork were the colors are not subjective but objective you would see you were way way off. Or if you printed photos.
I doubt you have any real calibration end to end including your monitor.
If it works for you great, but just because you do things incorrectly doesn't mean you should advise others to do so.
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There is more than one very large well respected custom dye sub shops that still to this day use CMYK colors.
The issue with colors is that until you see others work it is hard to judge if your inks/profile truly are the best they can be regardless if you are suing CMYK or RGB. You can, in many cases, tell how well ones ink/profile combination is based solely on their reds and black. Sounds like you have it dialed in for your application - continued success.
And I bet those very large well respected custom dye sub shops use RIPs and large format printers if they are using CMYK. LOL
Seeing others work means nothing without source files and objective color. You have no real reference if the color is true or not, just what you deem to be "good" subjectively. I look at all my colors, not just Red and Black, and compare to objective test source files on a calibrated high end wide gamut monitor.
The original question had nothing about desktop sublimation. So sounds like the answer to the original question is that it depends on the profile that the printer uses.Umm no. Just some information on forums is poor.
New users need to be able to get accurate information and follow best practice. This isn't nothing I invented. I just quoted all the experts, including ADOBE and EPSON.
No sublimation dealers suggest using CMYK colors for desktop printers, especially since the profiles are all in RGB
If you would like to debate that is fine ... however, **I'm** not the topic. LOL
The person I responded to mentioned he had a 3100, which is a DESKTOP printer. Even with a large format you need would need a RIP for CMYK or have Postscript native to the printer, that fact doesn't change with desktop sublimation or large format it is a fact of inkjet sublimation period. So my statement is relevant to both the original person posting and to the person I directed my comment to.
Rest assured Conde didn't give him a CMYK profile for his Ricoh, and no one supplies a CMYK profile for the desktop, because it would be foolish having a sub $200 printer with a RIP costing over a grand or more.
Post is here ... http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dye-sublimation/t383825.html#post2169018
If you can point out who supplies CMYK profiles for straight up use in a printer without a RIP or postscript I would be interested to see that. LOL
There are some very experienced users on this forum, who really know their stuff and are respected in what they say.
If someone new comes along and starts spurting out untruths and nonsense as fact and good advice, then surely it is up to the people who do know what they are talking about to call them on it, and point out where and why they are wrong, so that the what comes out of the thread is the truth and best advice for anyone looking in who doesn't know what is best.
We use large format printers for sublimation, and do our own ICC profiling for the different things we print to. These ICC profiles are RGB. The printers are RGB, and all our workspaces in Photoshop are set to RGB (specifically Adobe RGB 1998) as is our cameras, and calibrated monitors. What we see on screen is pretty spot on for what we get printed on the final product.
If we made CMYK ICC profiles for our printers, and sent them CMYK information to print, it would be a nonsense, as the printer would have to just convert it back to RGB anyways, which would mess up the colours, and we wouldn't have a product printed with what we see on screen.
If someone here is using their graphics software in CMYK mode, and sending this to their printer, which is converting it back to RGB, and it works for them then fine, but this will be more luck and the exception to the rule than anything else, and shouldn't be recommended as good practice. If they're using a RIP, then there is nothing wrong with the workflow being in CMYK.
If someone new comes along and starts spurting out untruths and nonsense as fact and good advice, then surely it is up to the people who do know what they are talking about to call them on it, and point out where and why they are wrong, so that the what comes out of the thread is the truth and best advice for anyone looking in who doesn't know what is best.
We use large format printers for sublimation, and do our own ICC profiling for the different things we print to. These ICC profiles are RGB. The printers are RGB, and all our workspaces in Photoshop are set to RGB (specifically Adobe RGB 1998) as is our cameras, and calibrated monitors. What we see on screen is pretty spot on for what we get printed on the final product.
If we made CMYK ICC profiles for our printers, and sent them CMYK information to print, it would be a nonsense, as the printer would have to just convert it back to RGB anyways, which would mess up the colours, and we wouldn't have a product printed with what we see on screen.
If someone here is using their graphics software in CMYK mode, and sending this to their printer, which is converting it back to RGB, and it works for them then fine, but this will be more luck and the exception to the rule than anything else, and shouldn't be recommended as good practice. If they're using a RIP, then there is nothing wrong with the workflow being in CMYK.
I do work in vector, I create some of the customer art, and I also have to take in customer supplied art. I also work extensively with photographs and mixed media as well.
What I state as facts are not my facts, these are from the experts for example Epson, Adobe, and most any mainstream sublimation supplier. I didn't invent this stuff.
The main reason one would have to work in CMYK is where the customer has existing files in CMYK. This is due to the fact that some customers have their logos and art done by commercial printers (printing on paper) where the legacy of the equipment used in that industry is in Postscript.
Having a RIP that can handle those CMYK customer files directly is a huge plus for some. For me on occasion I have taken in CMYK files as that is what the customer has used for their paper documents sent to high volume commercial printers. It's a PITA for me since I have to end up "swatching" to get a good match, but I can do it.
I don't assume what type of artwork if vector or photographs one uses if I am giving advise. Inkjet printing without a RIP requires RGB files, makes no difference what kind of art vector or photo or otherwise "like work" is sent to it. Printers are agnostic to the type of artwork, it's what kind of data the printer driver is designed to handle Good practice is good practice.
If you have facts or data from outside sources most people would deem expert then please present those to form your argument. I don't "he said she said", that is why I refer to outside expert opinion to make my arguments.
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No clue how this thread went off in another direction, your question was what colors to use to set up your file to send to S&K, well that's easy, ASK S&K...
As far as who's right and who's wrong about CMYK vs RGB...I've done so many color swatches to try and figure out what's the best...my findings are pretty much spot on with what Mark has been saying...RGB is what I prefer...
I've printed Pantone Solid Coated colors, CMYK colors and RGB colors and found my best colors are RGB for sublimation...I do use CMYK and Pantone colors to do exact matching for teams I sublimate for but there's really no right or wrong...
I have an Epson 7010 with Cobra CIS and Cobra high temp inks, flawless colors for what I use them for...I use CS6 Illustrator 99% of the time and a tiny bit of Photoshop...
Best way to figure out what to use is run color palettes for each, CMYK, RGB and Pantones, print them using a CMYK art board and RGB art board, pick the basic colors you like, make a custom swatch and do your own thing...
I was told to use the Cobra ICC but I found using the basic Epson Vivid profile with high quality setting gives me the best colors...
To each his own, EXPERIMENT!!!
I agree on your comment about SKs requirement. Dave has swatches you can download, I would recommend that one have a transfer made with swatches if you are doing vector and/or spot colors. Files I have sent him have always been RGB, but not to say he can't handle CMYK as he has high end pro equipment, so best to ask.
But 2 issues with your other comments:
1. You are not color managing at all. If your ICC from Cobra is not working you are not setup correctly. Using Epsons ICC which isn't made for sublimation is not a good practice. I have Cobra inks, use their ICC and get good colors. See the attached scan of a test file that was transferred onto poly. The scan is grainy but the colors are correct. This was a WF1100. You should get similar results on a 7010.
2. Adobe Illustrator is a poor choice for sublimating without a RIP or a Postscript printer.
Per Adobe
https://helpx.adobe.com/illustrator/kb/troubleshoot-problems-printing-non-postscript.html
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Adobe Illustrator is optimized for PostScript printing. In fact, many of the Illustrator advanced features can only be described using the PostScript page description language. Non PostScript printers (for example, Hewlett-Packard LaserJets, Canon BubbleJets, or Epson Stylus) use printer description languages that are not full programming languages (for example, PCL or QuickDraw) and are unable to describe all of the objects and attributes in Illustrator artwork. Most non PostScript printers rely on display information, host computer resources, and proprietary printer drivers to relay print information to the printer.
When you print from Illustrator to a non PostScript printer, objects may not print, or may print incorrectly. The behavior may vary with different printers and with different versions of the printer software. Non PostScript printing problems can manifest themselves in many different ways, including (but not limited to) the following:
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Per Epson
Support & Downloads - Epson Stylus Photo PX710W - Epson
Link was down just now but I have an archived attached as a graphic.
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I want to print from postscript-heavy applications such as InDesign, Illustrator and Quark Xpress. Do I need a RIP or Postscript printer driver?
RELATES TO:
Postscript printing
CYMK printing
DTP, Proofing
EXPLANATION:
Epson inkjet printers are RGB devices, designed to process and print RGB data from other RGB devices and applications.You will require a Postscript printer driver or 'RIP' in order to print CMYK data or have access to all printing features when using Postscript-heavy applications such as InDesign and QuarkXPress. Even printing basic files from such applications can result in print quality issues, so for documents that don't contain Postscript data we recommend printing from a standard office suite or word processing software. If you're printing photos, why not try the photo printing software supplied with your printer or another photo processing application. If you are trying to print CMYK data, an alternative is to convert the file(s) to a standard format - for photos we recommend a JPG or TIFF (RGB encoded) file which the printer will be able to print. While it is possible to print non-Postscript data from a Postscript-heavy application, you may experience issues as the application may have limited print functionality, even determining a different paper feed path (such as a printer's roll paper path) which cannot be changed; this can result in an error message such as "media out/not loaded correctly", if you print with paper loaded in to the standard cut sheet path. Software such as InDesign and QuarkXPress is not generally used for everyday general purpose or photo printing, and is generally used in the publishing and graphic design and arts industries where users require proofing capabilities and greater control over the colour management process.
RIP solutions
Previously, some Epson printers have had optional Postscript functionality available with the Epson Stylus RIP Pro, e.g. Stylus Photo 2100, R2400.
For some Epson laser printers, a PostScript Printer Description (PPD) file is available from the Drivers & Software section for your product.
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I use Illustrator but never for sublimation or pigment printing from any of my inkjets. I have never been able to accurate color using AI on any laser or inkjet, sublimation or otherwise .... reason is AI is designed for higher end Postscript printers. The minimum printer would be a Postscript enabled desktop laser or an inkjet with a RIP.
Using any printer sublimation or regular and color managing properly, then AI will not print accurate color for any test photo I send it, including the attached test PDI target photo. But Adobe gives some workarounds or you can "swatch" using AI.
For this reason I use Corel Draw which can work on inkjets and other non postscript printers better. I use AI for sending out to commercial printers that require CMYK, or to convert AI files to other formats.
AI is a great program, just the most of the installed base of users are using either proofing postscript laser printers, inkjet printers with RIP, or send directly to commercial printers for paper output. It wasn't made for cheap $200 desktop inkjet or low end laser printers and expect to get high end output from it.
If you swatch I recommend that you stay in an RGB if not using a RIP or Postscript.
I will repost the link for "swatching", it has charts that can be downloaded and has good instruction.
CMYK & RGB Color Charts - MultiRIP Sublimation, Transfers, Photograph and Direct-to-Garment Printing RIP Softwares
Having said that ... most of my spot colors are accurate without swatching, what I see on my monitor is what is printed. Some colors I do need to swatch but those are not far off.
ICC profiles when they are made tend to be the most accurate on the input colors in the target scan. Those other colors in the 16.7 million colors gamut have to be what is called interpolated.
What you are doing using any and every color palette is that you are lucky when you hit a color. There is no reason to not stay in RGB then "tune" and add colors in between your swatch colors as needed.
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Now I know I'm going to get a bunch of crap for this but I'm amazed at how many relative new users won't learn proper color management, get bad results, then post bad practice for others to follow.
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Well, I'm not disagreeing with what you posted...I'm saying what works for me...
I've got my colors down perfectly, I have zero issues color matching anything, my colors and artwork are crisp, clean and vibrant...tons of pics on my website and I've been doing sublimation for over 10 years so I found little things that work and use them...
I use illustrator, use Epson Vivid settings etc and my red is perfect, royal blue is awesome, black is super dark and super clean, 3 colors some have issues with and I have no issues with them...to each his own...you got something that works, good fo you...
I actually use RGB red, RGB Blue, RGB Black, RGB yellow and some others but when I need a really good carolina blue, I have one in pantone that's a perfect match for my own line of micro fiber shorts, for dark navy blue I use pantone and for my seattle seahawk matching lime green I use a pantone color...I mix and match as needed...nothing wrong with that...
THAT WAX Sports
getthatwax.com
I've got my colors down perfectly, I have zero issues color matching anything, my colors and artwork are crisp, clean and vibrant...tons of pics on my website and I've been doing sublimation for over 10 years so I found little things that work and use them...
I use illustrator, use Epson Vivid settings etc and my red is perfect, royal blue is awesome, black is super dark and super clean, 3 colors some have issues with and I have no issues with them...to each his own...you got something that works, good fo you...
I actually use RGB red, RGB Blue, RGB Black, RGB yellow and some others but when I need a really good carolina blue, I have one in pantone that's a perfect match for my own line of micro fiber shorts, for dark navy blue I use pantone and for my seattle seahawk matching lime green I use a pantone color...I mix and match as needed...nothing wrong with that...
THAT WAX Sports
getthatwax.com
Print this photo and transfer ...
http://www.gballard.net/dl/PDI_TargetFolderONLY.zip
You will not get accurate colors across the entire gamut of your inks with what you are doing.
It is only that using swatches you can pick whatever color happens to "land" to the right color you need after transferring.
If I gave you source material that needs to be accurate you are going to have to jump thru a lot of hoops and tweak and trial and error. If you color management properly trial and error is minimized. Most of my stuff it is accurate on screen and transfers what I see on screen. I do swatch on occasion but most of my stuff is plug and play.
Some blues and greens are off due to the fact I am using a cheap printer not designed for commercial output, so on occasion I swatch.
My money says what you are seeing on screen isn't true either. 'Super dark" "Awesome" and "Super Clean" indicates you are seeing colors subjectively and not objective. Being accurate requires objective color and correct color management. While you might like the colors you see I bet they are not accurate. If you don't have a wide gamut calibrated IPS monitor then you have no true reference. But if your color management setup is correct in the application software, your using an ICC that was made correctly and you apply it correctly, and your printer/inks are good then you can get by without a high end monitor. But you can't trust onscreen viewing 100%.
Swatching using other palettes just means you have more color variations to choose from to find a matching color.
To each his own? You are sublimating without using a sublimation ICC, I don't recommend anyone do that.
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