[LAMECH]

Hello Forum!

I need help fast figuring out which machine to buy! I'm new to embroidery, but I have built up a lot of clientel for left chest logos and school uniforms. Ive been outsourcing my work for over 18 months, but now its time to make a move and get my own machine. 98% of my work will be left chest logos/names for polo shirts (pique), school uniforms (jersey knit), and woven shirts. So all i care about is SUPERB STITCH QUALITY & SMALL LETTERING CAPIBILITIES. I've heard many people say small lettering is part digitizing, part machine, part garments, and part thread/smaller needles. Whichever machine i choose will be set up optimally for this sole purpose. I've researched 3 machines over the past year and im down to: Tajima Neo Plus, Happy HCD-1501 & the Barudan Elite Pro II.

I've attended a ISS Show and took it a step furhter and recently had samples of my current designs ran and sent back to me on all 3 machines by each of their respective salesmen. Most of the logos had small lettering and to my surprise the Happy looked the best, followed by Barudan, then Tajima. So here lies my question. If the Tajima's sew outs looked so poor with the smaller lettering and its a premium machine in this market, was there user error in the machine set up? I use an outside company for my digitizing and i have never had a problem with their sew outs. Keep in mind, i sent them all embroidery files of my most frequent designs from my current customers.

Next question, is Happy really a Superior Machine? If it is, why is a 4 head, 15 needle $8000 cheaper than a comparable Tajima or Barudan? Is it as durable as the other two machines? Where is it built? My embroider uses them and his work is acceptable, but he has had some issues with smaller lettering and loops in the designs. I've been talking to the Happy rep and he said that the lettering issue is isolated to my current embroider's technique, settings, etc. And i'm inclined to believe him because of the nice samples he sent back to me.

I've heard Barudan is the best in small lettering, but their control pad looks outdated and hard to use to me. Without finding an active, talkative forum/help group its hard to get any specific questions answered about it.

I've heard mostly good things about Tajima, but my sew outs have me scared of them for some reason.

My last question is can any or all of these 3 machines handle a load of 1500-2000 pieces a month for 6-8 months until we can upgrade to a 4 or 6 head. We know long hours will be involved!

I know i ramble a lot but i wanted to touch on everything!

If anyone can offer any insight to my situation, it would be greatly appreciated. We're looking to lease or finance in the next few weeks.

Thanks

 

[binki]

given unlimited resources i would go with a tajima 12, 6 or 4 head. if you need to save bux then go with one of the other brands but the smallest would be a 4 head. you cannot make enough bank on a single head.

but, why do this if you are successful now? doing this for production is a big task and a big expense. whatever you machine cost is, figure another 10% for supplies to start out.

 

[abchung]

Tajima and Barudan are great brands.
I don't know if it is true or not, people say barudan gives better lettering thus we bought Barudan. We have several barudan machines and are extremely happy with them.

Of course the more head the better for production, but you must realise that if you put all your money into one machine and when you need to do samples, you have to stop production to make your samples.

Good Luck.

P.S the above person is correct, I think the minimum head is 4, because a single head won't be economical.

 

[LAMECH]

given unlimited resources i would go with a tajima 12, 6 or 4 head. if you need to save bux then go with one of the other brands but the smallest would be a 4 head. you cannot make enough bank on a single head.

but, why do this if you are successful now? doing this for production is a big task and a big expense. whatever you machine cost is, figure another 10% for supplies to start out.

Well my resources aren't unlimited yet, but at minimum I'm sure I can get financing on a single head to get me started. The school season will be here in August, so I want to get a machine now to learn the ins and outs of it and to also get a jump on some of the uniforms so I won't be under so much pressure to produce in August. The reason I want to get a machine for myself is obvious, the bulk of my profit is going out of the window to the company I contract my work out to. Also I don't have the flexibility to try new things for my customers and myself. I have very, very talented graphic artist around me and we also want to start a small scale clothing line as soon. As well as having cheer & football customers that want to stray away from the norm at times. I also make graphics and Its counter productive to pay someone to do my work and not have the flexibility to try new things! I left out the fact that I have a lot of screen printing business that I contract out as well. My thoughts are, its easier and less of a headache to learn embroidery (not the digitizing element, we send this off to another company), I can start this retain more of my capital then use that money to upgrade to larger embroidery machines as well as purchase some good used screen printing equipment. My goal is owning my own shop. We have plotters, heat presses and some of the other equipment to make this happen a full service shop. I can't spend another school season paying $3.50-$4 per garmet on embroidery on 2800-4000 uniforms, it'll kill me mentally. That's too much profit that could be staying in house. I have guanteed contracts so the unknown in embroidery is worth the risk to me.

Thanks for your reply. Just curious why Tajima of Buradan? Everyone keeps saying they have the best small letter?

 

[JAF]

I started off with a single head Tajima & after that was paid off I purchased a 4 head Barudan. Both machine are great. If I would have had the business to start with, I would have purchased the 4 head when I started my business.
If you try to do this on a single head you will not be able to price it out at $3.50-$4 and make money. Let's say you have 100 unifoms with a 10K stitch logo. You're charging $4 & you can sew 4 an hour on a single head. That's means you're making $16/hr, less your expenses.

 

[LAMECH]

I started off with a single head Tajima & after that was paid off I purchased a 4 head Barudan. Both machine are great. If I would have had the business to start with, I would have purchased the 4 head when I started my business.
If you try to do this on a single head you will not be able to price it out at $3.50-$4 and make money. Let's say you have 100 unifoms with a 10K stitch logo. You're charging $4 & you can sew 4 an hour on a single head. That's means you're making $16/hr, less your expenses.

Thanks for your reply Judy. I was stating that I currently pay $3.50 to $4 per uniform to get the logos stitched on them from someone else. I was saying I don't want to give that much of my profit away to my current contract embroider any more. So if I understand you correctly, are you saying with the current business I have, it would make more sense to purchase a 4 head if I can afford it and/or get financing? And have you ever noticed any difference between the smaller text that was sewn by your different machines? I really pride myself on quality in all aspects of my biz, so that is the main concern. Followed by durability, ease of use, ease of maintenance and cost. The reason I put cost last is because either I'm approved for 4 head or I'm approved for a single head, either way I'm very confident I'll be approved. The price difference between the single heads is not great enough to be a concern. The problem comes in if I'm approved for a larger amount, which 4 head to buy. The Happy machine is $8000 cheaper than the Tajima and Barudan. And I liked how the my sew outs came back from the Happy saleman. I just keep hearing whispers of them not being as study as the other 2 brands.

 

[LAMECH]

Tajima and Barudan are great brands.
I don't know if it is true or not, people say barudan gives better lettering thus we bought Barudan. We have several barudan machines and are extremely happy with them.

Of course the more head the better for production, but you must realise that if you put all your money into one machine and when you need to do samples, you have to stop production to make your samples.

Good Luck.

P.S the above person is correct, I think the minimum head is 4, because a single head won't be economical.

How easy are they to perform the most common functions and may i ask whats the newest model you have? Thanks

 

[LAMECH]

I started off with a single head Tajima & after that was paid off I purchased a 4 head Barudan. Both machine are great. If I would have had the business to start with, I would have purchased the 4 head when I started my business.
If you try to do this on a single head you will not be able to price it out at $3.50-$4 and make money. Let's say you have 100 unifoms with a 10K stitch logo. You're charging $4 & you can sew 4 an hour on a single head. That's means you're making $16/hr, less your expenses.

I have another question Judy. Would you prefer one machine over the other when it comes down to ease of use. And may i ask which machines you own? Thanks!

 

[JAF]

My tajima is 15yrs & the Barudan is 8yrs. I wouldn't pick one over the other.

You need to decide which machine will meet your needs and your budget.

For good small lettering or any design it isn't only the machine. You need good digitizing and in my opinion, you need to understand tensions.

 

[a123bonnie]

I have a friend who bought a new Happy 4 head and was soooo impresses with their service. She said that when ever things went wrong with the machine a tech was there within 48 hours to fix it. I said "how many times have you had to have service in the 6 months that you have had the machine" she said "4 times so I know how prompt they are". My answer was " I have had Barudans for 20 years and have never had to have a technition out to work on any of them. NEVER. So, in all of the years that I have been in the embroidery buisiness I still think the Barudan is the Cadillac of embroidery machines. I also know that the Tajimas are great machines. The only problem I have with them is that there are so many adjustments for everything and when everything is in place you get GREAT embroidery but when one is out.....not so good. You may need to have a tech handy for that but it's not a big problem of course. So, in my opinion you can't do better than the Barudan right from the start including the great back-up support from the company.
Good luck,
Bonnie

 

[api]

LAMECH, you said: "I can't spend another school season paying $3.50-$4 per garment on embroidery on 2800-4000 uniforms, it'll kill me mentally."

Let's see: You are talking about $9800 - $16000/school season. (2800 x $3.50 - 4000 x $4.00)

If you'd purchase a machine for appr. $15K, how much could you save from your actual $3.50/garment expense?

With 1 head, you can do 6-10 garments per hour (maybe less). If you would save say 50% of the $3.50/garment cost (you probably won't be able to!) you would work for an average $10.50 - $17.50/hour for about 300 - 600 hours. (And you will have a monthly leasing expense for a few years.)

Are you sure you want this?

Sorry for being the devil's advocate here, but I think - in this situation - this is what can help.

By the way, we have a new Tajima Neo, and we love it. But we are not working for $10.50 - $17.50/hour with it. Embroidery is not our main focus so we don't mind to skip (or outsource) the $3.50/garment type of jobs.

I hope I didn't discourage you.

 

[sewexclusive]

Had both Tajima 6 head and Happy machine. Happy was the better of the two. Now I have Melco XTS and have several linked together. I can run the same job or seperate jobs. My production has increased.
Give them a look mine run great. Right now they are running 12 hour days.

 

[LAMECH]

LAMECH, you said: "I can't spend another school season paying $3.50-$4 per garment on embroidery on 2800-4000 uniforms, it'll kill me mentally."

Let's see: You are talking about $9800 - $16000/school season. (2800 x $3.50 - 4000 x $4.00)

If you'd purchase a machine for appr. $15K, how much could you save from your actual $3.50/garment expense?

With 1 head, you can do 6-10 garments per hour (maybe less). If you would save say 50% of the $3.50/garment cost (you probably won't be able to!) you would work for an average $10.50 - $17.50/hour for about 300 - 600 hours. (And you will have a monthly leasing expense for a few years.)

Are you sure you want this?

Sorry for being the devil's advocate here, but I think - in this situation - this is what can help.

By the way, we have a new Tajima Neo, and we love it. But we are not working for $10.50 - $17.50/hour with it. Embroidery is not our main focus so we don't mind to skip (or outsource) the $3.50/garment type of jobs.

I hope I didn't discourage you.

Thanks for your response! And your right, all aspects of this move have to be considered. I think there are 3 factors that may have been over looked by people reviewing my situation and my decision to lease/finance a machine. The first is I have at least 2 months to produce the uniforms, we will deliver them a few hundred at a time from Mid June - late August. Second, I have year round clients that need embroidered goods, school is just a guaranteed high volume time for me. Third, the $3.50 - $4 i speak about is not my profit from the uniforms just what i pay to get them embroidered. What im trying to do is keep all profit, not just the smaller end which is left over minus the garment and embroidery fees. I've been blessed enough to have enough screen printing and embroidery clients built up from be technically just being a broker/salesman/middle man (i outsource screen printing and embroidery currently). This is my good paying full time job, now I want to get a bigger piece of my own pie.

 

[api]

OK, let's talk about the 3 factors:

1.) You have 2 months to deliver, so you won't run out of time. But with 1 head, it still takes 300-600 hours to finish the job. (Unfortunately you cannot do anything else during this time because you have to do the garment preparation and the finishing too.)

2.) If you have year round clients, you will realize soon, that you are busy year round, but - with the 1 head machine on a saturated embroidery market and depressed prices - you cannot make enough money. You will need some SPECIAL product to be able to charge enough. (Just my opinion.)

3.) If you outsource your embroidery job, you pay $3.50 - $4.00/garment, but in this case you don't have to do anything. THIS is the amount you can keep in your pocket if you start stitching. Of course you won't be able to save all $3.50, since you will have expenses, and also, your TIME will be spent in front of the embroidery machine.

OK. I shut up now.

My suggestions (I could be wrong):

A.) Do one more realistic calculation before you buy an embroidery machine.

B.) If you buy one, try to get at least a 4-head (or even better, 4 x 1 head in a network.)

C.) Choose from Barudan or Tajima (you cannot go wrong with them) and chose the one which has better support close to your location.

D.) Save money for accessories (Mighty hoop, treads, backings etc.) and be prepared to purchase (and learn) an embroidery software. You will want that freedom down the road.

Good luck!

If my explanations are not clear, I apologize. English is still a "work in progress" for me.

 

[nalob]

I think it would be a good idea to do the embroidery in house if its possible. You would make enough profit to pay off the machine. I think 1500-2000 pieces a month would more than cover the cost of the machine. The extra $3.50-4 would have the machine paid off in no time...
But on the other hand if you did buy a machine you should outsource till you know that your embroidery quality is atleast on par with what you are already outsourcing. With that much items being embroidered each month and the steadyness of these jobs you should do good.

 

[a123bonnie]

I agree with API entirely. I would think that if you do go with a single head you would want to use it for monograms and smaller orders that you can charge much more for. You would charge 8.00 to 12.00 for a monogram or a name. You would charge somewhere around 8.00 t0 12.00 for a crest size logo for a small company, maybe somewhere between 50.00 and 100.00 for a jacket back, etc. Small orders is a nitch of its own I think. It's not that easy to get 6 or 7 of a logo done for a very small company so they usually appreciate you. Usually these are repeat customers and can make a great business. On your big orders.....you can't charge those amounts for 1000 garments. You will have to charge less per garment. You will be way ahead if you outsorce your big orders and only do orders under 100. You will go crazy trying to get out 1000 garments. You will need space to stack,count, package and all that goes with it. If something does go wrong with the machine......you are grounded until it is taken care of. Think about it, if you outsorce 1000 garments and make 1.00 each, you have made 1000.00 for just directing the traffic and saving your machine and your time so that you can be out there getting more screen print orders or more machine orders. If you are trying to do 1000 garments you won't have time to get out and drum up customers. If you think you do want to do the bigger orders than you will definately need to go with at least a 4 head.
Good Luck!
Bonnie

 

[api]

2000 pieces/month, 24000 pieces/year with a single head is 90 garments/day, 11-12 garments/hour.

It is more than a full time job, it is a galley-slave school.

 

[nalob]

2000 pieces/month, 24000 pieces/year with a single head is 90 garments/day, 11-12 garments/hour.

It is more than a full time job, it is a galley-slave school.

haha...I totaly agree. was just saying that he should do good if he decides to do it in house. But as stated from others here you should definetly look into atleast a 4 head machine.

 

[api]

I agree. And also worth considering the learning curve of the embroidery production. It looks sooo easy when somebody else does it.

 

[drdoct]

your TIME will be spent in front of the embroidery machine.

This!
Api hit the nail on the head with this quote! If you do anything less than a 4 head embroidery machine they'll find you there one morning at the machine and a self inflicted bullet in your head. Seriously, I would look for a better deal on the embroidery outsourcing. I'd rather make .05 a garment just directing traffic than having to sit in front of a machine for most of the day to keep my head above water.

Also, all it takes is a few good errors and your service tech will cost you plenty of 'profit'. I can tell you, I have a single head and even doing a few hundred shirts is awful. Once you get a few going really good you think you can walk away for a quick 4 minute break but then almost magical you'll get a thread break. Or a needle will break and the machine won't catch it till you have a few dozen jagged holes in your shirt. Skip the headache of slow embroidery and work on your buying and prices. I know you can get your outsourcing cheaper if you start shaking the trees.

And none of this is even thinking about the learning curve to get started. Embroidery machines don't just churn out great results, they've got to be constantly tuned and tested. Every single bobbin change creates a potential big change in tension and potential for error. Embroidery is a LOT of hands on work.