T-Shirt Forums banner

81 - 100 of 134 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
424 Posts
Holy sheet... I thought my sublimation inks were expensive, but those numbers are crazy.

I keep hoping that DTG will reach it's potential as a true screenprinting alternative, but each new generation of machines just seem to disappoint me again.

The ink isn't cheap but those calcs assume 100% coverage over the whole area in question. We don't assume that and regularly print 16 x 18 prints. The real killer isn't actually the ink at that print size most times. It is the time it takes the printer to print it.

The biggest downside to DTG printing we have after getting a GT-782 is that when doing CMYK we are single threaded and with white ink we still end up waiting for the printer if doing large designs. For the large designs, I spend much more in labor the for the operator to stand there and wait for the print to finish than I do in ink per print.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,664 Posts
Holy sheet... I thought my sublimation inks were expensive, but those numbers are crazy.

I keep hoping that DTG will reach it's potential as a true screenprinting alternative, but each new generation of machines just seem to disappoint me again.
You are comparing two completely different processes. Sublimation will not print on a black shirt. For any dtg printer, the ink cost will jump up if you print on a dark garment. An Epson-based dtg printer will use approximately 8 to 10 times the amount of white ink as color ink average. A Brother GT-782 printer will use about 4 to 5 times the amount of white ink to color on average. The majority of light garment prints will be less than the cost of the same print using dye sub ink unless you are buying in bulk under a licensed ink. Plus, dtg printers can do both cotton, blends and polyester garments - sublimation will only to polyester without looking faded.

The numbers posted by the guy above where way off as well. But if you want to compare ink pricing of sublimation printers of the same size as dtg printers, sublimation inks far exceed what dtg inks cost assuming it takes the same coverage. Here is the explanation behind this statement based on a 4880 printer:
- SubliJet IQ - $149.00 per 110 ML cartridge x 9 cartridges = 1 Liter $1332.00
- ArTainium - $132.50 per 110 ML cartridge x 9 cartridges = 1 Liter $1192.50

Want to look at non-Epson printers, then look at the cost of Ricoh carts for sublimation at $110 per 60 MLs. That is $1833.33 per a Liter of sublimation ink for that printer. THAT IS LIQUID GOLD!

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,136 Posts
ok...thought this would be the best way to show the dual 720 and its print speed... I printed the surf shark at 12 inches wide. no smoke n mirrors video experts etc, just an old kodak easyshare c340:) I did'nt fool with the colors, its a hack n paste job and my pretreat still is subpar.. Im a still learning!! my wife is the expert at this and she wasnt avail.. so my daughter and i gave er hell!!

i have mistakes in the art itself, had to take out layers etc its a great dane so i think it is set up for screen printing.. all this being said it can be made to look much better by the experts ..(my wife):) by fooling with the rip settings!!!

she does this on a daily basis with the other printer and it looks great and she has had no issue with selling any 720 res prints or returns.. the printer will crank these out super fast in 720 printing to white with awesome quality aswell.

this should take care of the argument that an epson cant do this in 720, again its ek rip.. say what you want about the commercial printer that uses this rip, i know nothing of there business practices and they dont make the software! [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oREjGkfKPlY[/media]

regards
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,210 Posts
Between Jeff's video and this video, the speed issue should be put to rest.

As for price, depending on your buying volume of ink, this design would cost between $2.60 and $3.60 on the Brother 782. I will let those with an Epson 1800 post the ink cost when running at 1440x1440, 1440x720, and I will let Jeff post the price when printing at 720x720, since he seems to be the only one on the forums who has the ability to do that.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8klr4lUroaA[/media]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,136 Posts
I used medium drop size, level 2, and vivid for the color layer... for the white underbase i used medium drop size level 3.. (content based setting) you have to play around with the high light level control etc..

there are other ways to get the same results using the (mixed setting etc) they key is not flooding the white and adding white highlight while printing the color aswell.. this using bidirectional enabled!!!

Its a major PITA to get dialed in, once you understand how it works it starts getting easier..you have to test and test and play around with the contrast etc for the white layer!!! I wasted a ton o ink testing. Im no expert im still learning!! my wife makes it look easy!!;) I Think the biggest mistake someone will make using the ek is thinking there just going to turn it on and it will do it by itself..not the case in 720 res:) any anajet sprint user with the 1900 version rip can do this once its dialed in, it being the same software!! hopefully i continue to get better at it!!!:p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
934 Posts
Jeff,

When using the highlight white and 720 underbase do you have to tweak settings for different designs or did you find one that will work on most? The problem I had with the lighter underbase and using a strong highlight to make white areas good was the colors and white highlight bleeding together.

Also is it consistent over a large run. At 720 we found you were already borderline having enough white so any little clogging of the head would be very noticeable.

I'm now thinking I should take another look and do some more testing again. It would be great to run the underbase quicker since I do mostly full back prints on black shirts.

Thanks,
Andy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,136 Posts
Jeff,

When using the highlight white and 720 underbase do you have to tweak settings for different designs or did you find one that will work on most? The problem I had with the lighter underbase and using a strong highlight to make white areas good was the colors and white highlight bleeding together.

Also is it consistent over a large run. At 720 we found you were already borderline having enough white so any little clogging of the head would be very noticeable.

I'm now thinking I should take another look and do some more testing again. It would be great to run the underbase quicker since I do mostly full back prints on black shirts.

Thanks,
Andy
Andy..

we are really novices at the process and technology but we find that once you get the white how you like it, its generally the same or the same settings for all designs.. the largest run my wife has had is about 40 shirts of the same image, and a smaller graphic than the one shown.. I personally cant notice a difference, if any its slight but i do not have a trained eye for art either:)

typically she does only one or two of the same image at a time..(baby-kids items ie smaller graphic) with ek it works different ways you can raise the level and lower drop size vice versa while adjusting highlight and contrasts etc it all works the same to me..lol:) you really just have to play around with it to your liking!!! ( i find the white preview window to be accurate to the print however i cant say the same for the color) I was only able to do this with ek myself you may know how to adjust other rips or have more experience at doing so than me!!!

best of luck..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
168 Posts
You are comparing two completely different processes. Sublimation will not print on a black shirt. For any dtg printer, the ink cost will jump up if you print on a dark garment. An Epson-based dtg printer will use approximately 8 to 10 times the amount of white ink as color ink average. A Brother GT-782 printer will use about 4 to 5 times the amount of white ink to color on average. The majority of light garment prints will be less than the cost of the same print using dye sub ink unless you are buying in bulk under a licensed ink. Plus, dtg printers can do both cotton, blends and polyester garments - sublimation will only to polyester without looking faded.

The numbers posted by the guy above where way off as well. But if you want to compare ink pricing of sublimation printers of the same size as dtg printers, sublimation inks far exceed what dtg inks cost assuming it takes the same coverage. Here is the explanation behind this statement based on a 4880 printer:
- SubliJet IQ - $149.00 per 110 ML cartridge x 9 cartridges = 1 Liter $1332.00
- ArTainium - $132.50 per 110 ML cartridge x 9 cartridges = 1 Liter $1192.50
Want to look at non-Epson printers, then look at the cost of Ricoh carts for sublimation at $110 per 60 MLs. That is $1833.33 per a Liter of sublimation ink for that printer. THAT IS LIQUID GOLD!
Mark
You're comparing commercial DTG systems costing in the tens of thousands against home startup sublimation printers. For much less than the cost of a DTG, someone could get a wide format Epson, a Sublim inkset, and a press large enough to do full coverage prints.

Sublìm ink is $220 per liter and large format sub means that the shirt ends up whatever color we want for about the same price that the DTG's are printing a medium format square on the front.

As I said before I truly believe that DTG is the future once it matures, but it's present cost seems much too high for the print quality, speed (yes, our Epsons+press are no faster, but we didn't pay $50k for the system either) and size limitations that I have seen.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,210 Posts
You can take a white shirt and sublimate it well enough to make it seem like a black shirt, all for less than $6.00? I would love to hear more. It has been years since we sublimated, so I would love an update on the technology. When we did it the shirts alone cost around $4.50, not to mention the ink, and paper.

Thanks in advance!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,664 Posts
You're comparing commercial DTG systems costing in the tens of thousands against home startup sublimation printers. For much less than the cost of a DTG, someone could get a wide format Epson, a Sublim inkset, and a press large enough to do full coverage prints.

Sublìm ink is $220 per liter and large format sub means that the shirt ends up whatever color we want for about the same price that the DTG's are printing a medium format square on the front.

As I said before I truly believe that DTG is the future once it matures, but it's present cost seems much too high for the print quality, speed (yes, our Epsons+press are no faster, but we didn't pay $50k for the system either) and size limitations that I have seen.
Yes I am, but you are also only comparing a light garment digital transfer process to a dark garment printing process. In addtion, you are limited to poly garments with CMYK inks only and dtg printing can print on to poly with CMYK inks - as well as cotton and blends with CMYK+White inks. As I said before, you are comparing two totally different things.

But if you only want to compare bulk (i.e. bottles - not degassed cartridges) CMYK inks, you can get bulk CMYK inks for an Epson-based printer for less than $220 a liter as well. You can even get the white ink for the Brother lower than that when buying the bulk ink container.

In the end, it is not a fair comparison between the two applications in my opinion. Just my belief... take it for what little it is worth.

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,210 Posts
Printzilla,

Very good points..

- No a 720x720 wouldn't quite be good enough from what I've found.

- I think you are correct that running 3 mod printers while also pretreating would be very hard to do if not impossible. If you are printing large dark shirt back prints and you have an auto pretreat you could get close. Then at least the bottle neck wouldn't be the printer. I think 2 mod one printers per operator is the sweet spot. Smaller pocket prints are tough to keep up with just 1 printer.

-we also have screen printing so we run shirts down the dryer to cut down the heat press time to 2:30 for dark and no pressing for shirts without white ink.

- I don't know if I should throw out prices but when buying quantity (5+ liters at a time) the bags get competitive with bulk dupont ink bottles.

I don't have that graphic so send it on over. andy@Mcdanielgroupllc.com I like facts not guesses so it will be good to get an even comparison.

Hope this helps.. I'm tired and in general a poor writer so who knows if this was readable.

Thanks, Andy
Have you had time to run the file I sent?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
153 Posts
Between Jeff's video and this video, the speed issue should be put to rest.

As for price, depending on your buying volume of ink, this design would cost between $2.60 and $3.60 on the Brother 782. I will let those with an Epson 1800 post the ink cost when running at 1440x1440, 1440x720, and I will let Jeff post the price when printing at 720x720, since he seems to be the only one on the forums who has the ability to do that.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8klr4lUroaA[/media]
Thanks. I love the Brother 782!!

Now I know what it sounds like in my own shop.

Isn't the GRAYSCALE White Layer on the Brother the thing that makes the 782's Print Quality, Hand, & actual White CC usage per print all so good?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,664 Posts
Isn't the GRAYSCALE White Layer on the Brother the thing that makes the 782's Print Quality, Hand, & actual White CC usage per print all so good?
Other RIPs / printing softwares can do the same thing as the GT-782 driver. So that is not what makes the hand software. It is probably something to do with the different ink chemistry. Since the Brother ink will not work in an Epson printer, that is what the difference is my opinion (but I am not a chemist).

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,136 Posts
Between Jeff's video and this video, the speed issue should be put to rest.

As for price, depending on your buying volume of ink, this design would cost between $2.60 and $3.60 on the Brother 782. I will let those with an Epson 1800 post the ink cost when running at 1440x1440, 1440x720, and I will let Jeff post the price when printing at 720x720, since he seems to be the only one on the forums who has the ability to do that.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8klr4lUroaA[/media]

OK, Here are the ink cost derived from the rip software.. Hope i got all the math right..:)

the ml price is based on dtginks.com 16oz bottles

cmyk 16oz (473.17ml) currently = 81.00 = 0.17 cents a ml

white 16oz (473.17ml) currently =115.00= 0.25 cents a ml (rounded up)

the rip calculator has you enter cents/per ml price..

rather than write all the info from the rip i just took a screen shot with the calculator and image!!!

the 720x2 surfshark i printed and posted the vid and pic of cost $2.97 per print per the rip calc.. level 2 color/ level 3 white..

the same image cmyk only 0.27 cents..


I also calculated droping the color level, white level and eliminating the highlight (this dramatically drops the cost down to 2.06 per print)

If any anyjet sprint user is interested in the settings for 720x2 printing i can take a screen shot of them for you to view for your set-up if you are having difficulty doing this..If its true that no other rip is able to get a good white underbase in 720 res.. i can say with confidence ekrip is unrivaled at this point and providing cheaper printing cost in the 720 res... I guess the slogan under there name there says it all.....

Eukon Digital, Inc. http://eukondigital.com/

""Technology for Fast Digital Color Textile Printing"":D


hope its helpful!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,136 Posts
WAIT A MINUTE HERE!!!:p I just noticed printzilla posted an additional vid of the surfshark print ;) I thought i was being nice by not posting a trimmed down version and comparing it to the original vid he posted..

I will also print and repost my trimmed time version of the 720x720 surfshark sometime late in the week or early next week.. (print cost will reduce aswell):D

this will make the print time comparison fair between the epson and the brother 782.. I set it up originally with the highlight and everything, like printzilla represented in his original surfshark vid.. YouTube - Brother GT-782 Surf Shark Demo Print ..

you lose detail as his did in his second vid YouTube - Shark Print but it will be a closer comparison (fair assessment this way) It seems the epsons print colors are more consistant with the original art!!! between the two machines!! I also noticed in his new vid the registration appears to be off i see alot white poking out at the end of the print:eek: thats just not acceptable with a price tag like that...

gotta order some pre treat.. so it may be early next week have the family coming in for thanks giving and the day job.. this is starting to get fun however!!!!!:p

hey print i calculate a 2:47 second print time in your NEW vid is this a fair assessment? your not gonna take that last spit out are ya?:D we will see what the homemade epson r1900 ($1,500 total cost) can do in comparison to the ($55,000) brother....the epson printing at 720 res (anajet) has already won in my eyes considering cost of machine and ink cost difference (aftermarket ink)..*IMHO* lets see if we can get close to your new print time.. A DTG DAVID AND GOLIATH:p GOTTA LOVE IT....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
424 Posts
hey print i calculate a 2:47 second print time in your vid is this a fair assessment? your not gonna take that last spit out are ya?:D we will see what the homemade epson r1900 ($1,500 total cost) can do in comparison to the ($55,000) brother.... The epson printing in 720 res has already won in my eyes considering cost of machine and ink cost difference, lets see if we can get close with the print time.. A DTG DAVID AND GOLIATH:p GOTTA LOVE IT....
So it *is* all about promoting your printer vs the Brother. At least the tone and direction of your posts make more sense now.

I'm glad you created the printer you wanted at a price point you can be proud of.

That being said, I own an Epson based printer and I own a copy of EKDigital. We are currently paying off that bill using a GT-782 and the Epson product is sitting quietly in the corner with no buyers interested in it.

Again, I do wish you success in convincing more people to move to the Epson platform. I'd rather compete against other Epson solutions currently than another GT-782.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,136 Posts
So it *is* all about promoting your printer vs the Brother. At least the tone and direction of your posts make more sense now.

I'm glad you created the printer you wanted at a price point you can be proud of.

That being said, I own an Epson based printer and I own a copy of EKDigital. We are currently paying off that bill using a GT-782 and the Epson product is sitting quietly in the corner with no buyers interested in it.

Again, I do wish you success in convincing more people to move to the Epson platform. I'd rather compete against other Epson solutions currently than another GT-782.

kinda hard to promote something you gave away free, i beleive i explained that to you the last time you fired out that statement so boldly...do i need to direct you to the free info and the post where i answered that before?? no promotion here, no financial gain, no nothing except a proud owner of an epson r1900 homebuild... if i have promoted anyone it would be ek rip (Im a happy customer) and anajet the latter i know nothing of there company as i said before... why dont you quote my whole post and not just what you like out of it!!!

i just noticed the new vid printzilla posted, apparently he felt the need to reprint his surfshark shirt and post a new video with his updated times..and hes clearly comparing print times between my printer times and the brothers in the voice over.. so i thought it only fair to print my best time aswell!!!:)

any complaints with that?:rolleyes: I dont think he would have any considering he reshot his after mine was posted, and its claiming its way faster!!!.. you take things way to serious, slow down a bit its ok no ones forcing you to buy an epson or anyone else, everyone has minds of there own here...

we are just comparing them on the imformational posts here in the forums as we have been doing -print times ,ink cost etc :p relax a bit.. I'm also very happy that you like the brother also and i wish you very much success with it, its a fine machine!!!! see how easy it is to compliment!!! you like your printer and rave about it... i like mine and rave also... no crime committed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
84 Posts
German,dont you have anything better to do,like print shirts and stop worrying about the Brother.Those who are buying Epson based printers will buy them,those who want the Brother will buy that.You are not going to convince anybody with your posts .Im glad I dont have all the time you have to worry about this because Im printing shirts and busy making money.Give it a break.This thread was not about the Epson based printer.Again,start your own thread.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
89 Posts
The ink isn't cheap but those calcs assume 100% coverage over the whole area in question. We don't assume that and regularly print 16 x 18 prints. The real killer isn't actually the ink at that print size most times. It is the time it takes the printer to print it.

The biggest downside to DTG printing we have after getting a GT-782 is that when doing CMYK we are single threaded and with white ink we still end up waiting for the printer if doing large designs. For the large designs, I spend much more in labor the for the operator to stand there and wait for the print to finish than I do in ink per print.
Sounds like you need to put another printer next to that operator. Get a 541 next to the 782 so he/she can run both. Even if they are only running the 541 at 50% efficiency that's still and additional 50%.
 
81 - 100 of 134 Posts
Top