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The 2 images on the left(ralph lauren polo and nike air michael jordan) are from a company called 10 deep and the 2 on the right (the one with "army" and transformer like emblem) are from Mishka.

I am not sure how big these companies are but on the assumption that no licensing was obtained, are these images legal or gray?
 

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I thought about this very thing. those two companies definitely don't have copyrights to those images. i went on a live web cam chat with johnny cupcakes and asked him how they/him get away with those things. he said that "you just make them and if they go after you they go after you. you just have to tip toe around" that's word form him and he has a lot of copy righted shirts he prints with his logos on them and stuff.
 

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Johnny cupcake sure does not beat around the bush. For a while I thought that maybe overlaying some text or images on a trademark, like covering the eyes of suspects with a small rectangular black, is an acceptable way of covering a person's(or trademark's) identity
yeah pretty much, i mean so many brands do it. countless brands. most of the time the company they are ripping off have no idea that they are even doing it.
 

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The 2 images on the left(ralph lauren polo and nike air michael jordan) are from a company called 10 deep and the 2 on the right (the one with "army" and transformer like emblem) are from Mishka.

I am not sure how big these companies are but on the assumption that no licensing was obtained, are these images legal or gray?
All four of those shirts are infringing on existing intellectual property. Maybe they will get caught and sued, maybe they won't.
 

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i went on a live web cam chat with johnny cupcakes and asked him how they/him get away with those things. he said that "you just make them and if they go after you they go after you. you just have to tip toe around" that's word form him and he has a lot of copy righted shirts he prints with his logos on them and stuff.
That's an interesting quote from Johnny, and probably quite accurate.

The part that's missing, though, is the analysis and decision that the reward is greater than the risk. That may be the case for Johnny, but it's not the case for all t-shirt brands. For anyone wanting to toe the line, they need to understand the risks and figure out for themselves if there is enough reward to take those risks. And it's also a good idea to have a good attorney around.

Ironically, for all the copyrights and trademarks that Johnny tip toes around, he his fighting his own IP battle with a bootlegger in Korea. I guess what goes around comes around...
 

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I thought about this very thing. those two companies definitely don't have copyrights to those images. i went on a live web cam chat with johnny cupcakes and asked him how they/him get away with those things. he said that "you just make them and if they go after you they go after you. you just have to tip toe around" that's word form him and he has a lot of copy righted shirts he prints with his logos on them and stuff.
If Johnny said that and he truly believes that then he deserves the issues he has with the guy trying to copy his line. If he copies other peoples copyrighted work why put up a funk when someone copies his work.
 

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If Johnny said that and he truly believes that then he deserves the issues he has with the guy trying to copy his line. If he copies other peoples copyrighted work why put up a funk when someone copies his work.
That's exactly what I was just thinking haha He "steals" from other people, then gets pissy when someone steals from him. It's called karma, dude.

Also keep in mind, Johnny Cupcakes now has millions of dollars, top notch lawyers and the ability to fly across the world to track down and sue someone. He also has millions of dollars and top notch lawyers to defend him in the event HE gets sued.
If you have that, go ahead and steal, if not....stealing will the the nail in your t-shirt coffin.
 

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If Johnny said that and he truly believes that then he deserves the issues he has with the guy trying to copy his line. If he copies other peoples copyrighted work why put up a funk when someone copies his work.
Yeah i guess i never thought about that, he is taking things that every obviously knows its not his designs. like he has a shirt with the ghost buster guy on it like wearing a baker hat and holding a cupcake. (but who knows he is so freakin rich he probably gets the permission to the designs) he proably has ways to contact the actual people who made the design to ask. unlike me i want to make a shirt with this character from toy story. i cant really call pixar and say "hey can i use this". i will just take the risk because the shirt is awesome.
 

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unlike me i want to make a shirt with this character from toy story. i cant really call pixar and say "hey can i use this". i will just take the risk because the shirt is awesome.
I would think twice about that if I were you. Disney is notorious for seeking out and taking action against infringement. Johnny Cupcakes might want to make people think it's ok or easy to get away with it. But he won't be there to defend you when you get the cease and desist letter. Also, it's probably not a good idea to admit your illegal intentions on a free public forum.
 

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Yes, they CERTAINLY DO infringe on copyright, are misleading and confuse the public. The lawyers at Nike and Ralph Lauren are probably getting ready to rip Johnny-On-The-Spot a new one. The big corporations always have better lawyers and deeper pockets than even the most successful ripoff artist has.
 

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If Johnny said that and he truly believes that then he deserves the issues he has with the guy trying to copy his line. If he copies other peoples copyrighted work why put up a funk when someone copies his work.
Because Johnny Cupcakes cares about business more than ethics. Or at least, our version of ethics. It's just about money.

Personally I think ethics has a place in business. Just as you might weigh up the chance of getting sued, cost of getting sued, potential profit, potential publicity, etc. into the risk vs. reward equation of whether or not to infringe on somebody else's work, I think you can also weigh in the ethical questions.

How are you going to feel about yourself if you rip-off another designer's work? Will you sleep at night?

Not to mention the marketing questions: How will you be perceived in the wider community? What will this tell people about your brand? Will it invite problems beyond just legal issues?

Disney, Nike, etc. might seem like faceless wealthy corporations ripe for the plucking... but underneath all that some individual human being just like us made the work with their own two hands. It didn't spring out of a magical evil corporate well, it was made by a person. Other people built it up into something of value.

It's a personal decision, but that's what I try and respect.

I've done design work that could potentially get me sued, and I am just fine with that. I've elected not to make easy money off other opportunities because I felt they were unethical.

Johnny draws that line somewhere different to where I do.

Other people will draw it different to either of us. Some tighter, some looser.

The law will draw it somewhere different again.

It's up to the individual whose line they want to go by, and they will suffer the consequences of that choice accordingly.

But to be sure, we all make ethical decisions in business -- whether that's to pay attention to our actions, or to ignore them to make a buck.

I think Johnny Cupcakes' actions look hypocritical from one perspective - but that's only if you assume there was any integrity in the first place. Fact is, protecting from infringement and infringing yourself have one thing in common - profit motive.

I think the easiest money in this world is usually the illegal money.

Realistically, most people will operate in the grey area to a greater or lesser extent. If I had a dollar for everyone who responded to that "I don't!", only to look at their website and see they're lying... well that's probably only a few hundred dollars, but it'd still be nice ;)

Personally, I just try not to get too grubby.

Where I draw the line I've never had anyone question why I'm doing what I do (i.e. "Hey, that shirt there... did you have to get permission to do that?"), and I like it that way.

The two biggest pieces of advice I would wish to impart on these issues are this:

1) Know the law. Make an informed decision.
2) Ignore what other people are (apparently) getting away with. Breaking the law just because other people are doing it is mob behaviour, and we should be better than that. Examine your own ethics, and make your own moral choices.

In the end it's not up to us to decide what someone else's moral choices are. If someone asks me directly what they should do, I can pretty much only say "Obey the letter of the law."

(or, you know... what I just said)

It's a complex issue, so I do resent having to boil it down to black and white sometimes (hence this post instead). On the other hand, most people don't do well with shades of grey.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
. . .
I think the easiest money in this world is usually the illegal money.

Realistically, most people will operate in the grey area to a greater or lesser extent. . . .On the other hand, most people don't do well with shades of grey.
I'll be going a little off topic here.

When I started selling airsoft, which was illegal back then, I was making good money prompting me to resign from my well paying job to concentrate on my own business full time. When airsoft was legalized I secured all the necessary permits and licenses. By opening shop inside a mall, I am required to pay all sorts taxes. Operating expenses shoots up. That is the price of being legal.

Others also became legal but only insofar as securing business permits and permit to operate. They sell all sorts of best selling fake brands with good profit margin and as far as local and national taxes go, almost all competitors are operating illegally. But they are the ones laughing all their way to the bank and knowing how things go here, they'll be laughing for a very very long time.

It does seem that illegal money is easier to make and more of it can be made that way. From my experience, including clothing and even shirts competitors sell, most people in our industry operating in the gray and black area are making the bucks. For us in malls(actually only 2 of us), the local revenue officer won't believe it even if you're actually losing money.

I am not advocating anything illegal but when I searched "humorous shirts" several the same design shows up in various sites. The same with shirts having other themes. It's just sad that that's the way things are. You really can't blame some people for believing (wrongly) that crime does pay - well, until caught anyway.
 
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