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Ryonet WBP Dual Cure Hybrid emulsion horrors!

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Old October 3rd, 2015 Oct 3, 2015 6:34:38 PM -   #1 (permalink)
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Unhappy Ryonet WBP Dual Cure Hybrid emulsion horrors!

Hello, fellow garment adornment pioneers!

I am having massive difficulties with Ryonet WBP Dual Cure Hybrid emulsion. I looked throughout these forums and online but can't find anyone who's having the same problem.

The problem is that when I wash out the exposed screen, the emulsion ripples near the edges, and many halftone dots get washed away completely. Basically it looks like the emulsion stops adhering to the screen. But at the same time, I get a lot of pink transparent film of emulsion not quite parting with the screen in many washed out areas, blocking the ink.

"You're under-exposing it", I hear you cry! But I get the same problem on definitely over-exposed areas too. In fact, here's a picture of my last step-exposure test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8bgrxu25u0...test.jpg?raw=1

The screen is plagued with the pink, impenetrable film in white areas, and it's really hard or impossible to get out.

My setup / process:

* Screens are DIY with a pretty coarse low-thread count polyester material called "voile".
* Reclaimed with emulsion remover, degreased, fan dried, coated 1-1 with a scoop coater.
* Dried in a dark, ventilated cabinet with exhaust, horizontally, material facing side down for at least 6 hours.
* Exposed using a single UV lightbulb ( from Ryonet website ), 6 inches away from screen.
* Using transparency + inkjet printer for positive, looks like it should be dark enough.
* Washing in light safe environment with a hose + nozzle attachment.

Emulsion is peeling off the screen. Badly. This is an 8 minute exposure attempt, looks horrendous - halftones did not wash out at all, and emulsion started peeling 30 sec after a first hole was washed through:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4pz9ob7yjp...sult.jpg?raw=1

From what I understand the pink unwashable film can be caused by either general overexposing, or by using the positive that's not dark enough ( which also would cause overexposing of areas that should be protected ). Is this right?

So, what about the peeling then? It happens everywhere, in over and under exposed areas. I made sure to degrease and thoroughly dry the screens before applying emulsion. I used the round edge of the scoop coater, and "zipped" it across the screen, front ( fabric facing side ) first, then the ink side, like the screenprinting gods insist we do. Could pressing on the ink side too hard cause emulsion to not adhere? I can't tell.

Could it be because my "silk screen" polyester material ( actually from curtain section at Joannes Fabrics ), is too coarse? I don't know the actual thread count, but would guess it's in very low numbers.



I have wasted nearly a quart of this emulsion doing test after test and pulled out about 75% of my hair.


Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
 
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Old October 4th, 2015 Oct 4, 2015 12:12:33 AM -   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ryonet WBP Dual Cure Hybrid emulsion horrors!

Hey dude,
How old is the emulsion? When was it mixed?
Why are you not using screen printing mesh for your screen? I'm guessing that's your cause for the problems...but I've been wrong before!
Good luck my man!!!
 
Old October 4th, 2015 Oct 4, 2015 5:43:04 AM -   #3 (permalink)
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Hey, thanks for the response. The emulsion is a couple weeks old.

My best guess is that this particular emotion requires a longer time to dry. Even though it appears dry to the touch it must set before exposure for at least 24 hours or perhaps more

As far as the pink film, now I think it may be that my positive is not dark enough and it gets overexposed underneath.

Going to try that theory and post results
 
 
Old October 5th, 2015 Oct 5, 2015 8:53:59 AM -   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ryonet WBP Dual Cure Hybrid emulsion horrors!

My dear merchandise decorators,

for the benefit of humanity for generations to come, I'd like to share how I finally solved this mystery.

Ryonet WBP Dual Cure Hybrid emulsion does not have an official recommended drying time listed. Looking online gave me an impression that as soon as it looks dry, it's good to go.

This, my fellow fabric bejewelers, is a false and dangerous assumption.

This emulsion will detach and run from your screen faster than a congressman fleeing a townhall meeting after an unscreened question, even after 16 honest, ventilated, dark hours on the drying rack.

The minimum safe time drying this particular emulsion, my friends, is 24 hours.

I will recommend Ryonet to list this information on their specs, and save another poor chap a $30 quart of bad experiments, wet socks, and bitter tears.

As far as pink, impenetrable film that is hard to see during washout, and even harder to get off, it is apparently caused by the stencil on transparency not being dark enough.

I solved this conundrum, Watson, by carefully scotch-taping two identical transparencies together for double darkness, and taking a swig of whiskey. One of these two things fixed it.

My sincere hope is that this information will be useful to someone out there.

Sloppy kisses,
Kirill
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Old October 6th, 2015 Oct 6, 2015 10:07:10 PM -   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ryonet WBP Dual Cure Hybrid emulsion horrors!

24 hours seems like overkill. 16 hours on a ventilated rack should have been fine.

When I first started, I had to go to staples to get my transparencies. They were so dull (laser printers) that I too had to carefully scotch tape two images together. Still looked semi transparent but it worked out fine.
Get an Epson with all black ink. It'll more then pay for itself in a few prints.
Post some pictures buddy!
 
Old October 7th, 2015 Oct 7, 2015 5:50:59 AM -   #6 (permalink)
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I tried 16 hours, and the emulsion still peeled from my low-thread-count screen. In fact, it was one of the things that threw me off and made me think it wasn't the drying time.

You are probably right about other emulsions, but this specific one definitely needs to dry longer.
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Old October 7th, 2015 Oct 7, 2015 1:42:21 PM -   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ryonet WBP Dual Cure Hybrid emulsion horrors!

I've been having a similar issue with the same emulsion. Only thing is I am having a hard time pinpointing the problem since I recently got a new exposure unit too.

I'll have to give longer drying time a go then. The other day I was able to get 3 good screens (dried for 10 hours) that washed out nicely after burning. I just printed with one though and while I was washing the ink off after printing parts of the design started to peel.

This is pretty unusual behavior for the emulsion for me! I've been using it for about 3 years or so and have never had this issue even with my previous exposure unit which was crap compared to the one I have now. I wonder if it's an issue with the recent batch they have?

Also, do you live in a humid area?
 
Old October 7th, 2015 Oct 7, 2015 2:47:07 PM -   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ryonet WBP Dual Cure Hybrid emulsion horrors!

I use this emulsion all the time. Usually I let the screens freshly coated with emulsion dry overnight. Your hypothesis is that the emulsion needs to dry longer. My data suggest otherwise: on several occasions I have coated a screen (1:1, using thin side of scoop coater), set it inside my drying cabinet (with a de-humidifier inside set to 35%), let it dry for 1 hour, then exposed the emulsion. I judge the dryness by touching the emulsion. If it feels dry it is. This has always worked fine.

My DIY exposure unit is a halogen shop light and I expose the screens for 40 minutes. Yeah, you do have to plan ahead with this kind of set up...I find plenty of things to do while waiting.

Transparencies: I use all black ink and "water proof transparencies" from Ryonet.

As the earlier poster said, I wonder if it is your mesh that is causing the problem. Perhaps you should invest in at least one proper screen so you can test that idea. cheaper than emulsion. You are to be commended for doing a step test! Most people just ask: How loong should I turn the light on for???

Good Luck!!
 
Old October 7th, 2015 Oct 7, 2015 5:21:41 PM -   #9 (permalink)
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My humidity is about 50%. I've never used this emulsion before, so can not comment on how it used to be. But for the last few days I've been timing the drying time at 24hrs and saw no peeling at all. Perfect screens every time. Maybe it's too humid in my basement for 16 or 10 hours. I could try it at 20, I suppose.
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Old October 7th, 2015 Oct 7, 2015 5:45:51 PM -   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ryonet WBP Dual Cure Hybrid emulsion horrors!

Alright, thanks! If I keep having the issues I'll try increasing the drying time like you did.
 
Old October 7th, 2015 Oct 7, 2015 6:22:13 PM -   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ryonet WBP Dual Cure Hybrid emulsion horrors!

You don't need 24 hours you need a dehumidifier. The higher the humidity the longer it takes. ifthe humidity gets really high a lot of emulsions will reasorb humidity. The screen may have been completely dry to the touch but if the humidity is over 45% on the screen it will never completely dry.

The top number is my temp and humidity as I work out of a 16x20 garage so no screen room. the bottom set is my dryer box. I usually can dry in 1 hour and a min of 30% in the dryer box. When I put the screens in the humidity will go up to 65%-80%. I normally don't push it and coat screens before printing a job or just as I am finishing for the night so at least a few hours but I have dried a screen in 45-60 min in a emergency. Slow air circulation not directly on a screen will help with drying drastically. When I first started I would coat screens hang on press at night. I put a small heater and had a box fan on low blowing away from the screen not to stir any dust. before morning I would pack coated screens in black bags for storage. I bought a old dry box. I have also built a storage cabinet but with a few fans and a small pad heater (I built provisions) it could also dry screens rapidly.

Also posted is the instruction sheet. it says 30%-50% IMO the 50% is too high but diazo isn't as finicky with humidity as the photopolymers. A dehumidifier is recommended and good air circulation
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Old October 8th, 2015 Oct 8, 2015 12:37:44 PM -   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ryonet WBP Dual Cure Hybrid emulsion horrors!

You're right. It's the humidity.

My drying box is a large plastic storage container with a square hole on one end with a small USB-powered fan, and a 4" round hole connected to clothes dryer exhaust duct. So there's a constant air flow inside.

I have a freestanding dehumidifier, which I should try placing close to the drying cabinet to try to dehumidify the air near the drying box intake.

Last I measured, the air inside the drying box was something like 50% humidity, which you are saying is way too much.

Thank you for the info.
 
Old October 8th, 2015 Oct 8, 2015 2:47:51 PM -   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ryonet WBP Dual Cure Hybrid emulsion horrors!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nagual20
You're right. It's the humidity.

My drying box is a large plastic storage container with a square hole on one end with a small USB-powered fan, and a 4" round hole connected to clothes dryer exhaust duct. So there's a constant air flow inside.

I have a freestanding dehumidifier, which I should try placing close to the drying cabinet to try to dehumidify the air near the drying box intake.

Last I measured, the air inside the drying box was something like 50% humidity, which you are saying is way too much.

Thank you for the info.

Do you have a intake and exhaust? A small heater keeping the box between 80-90 will work wonders as humidity is removed easier with warm air. With diazo it is important to not exceed about 95F. photopolymer is more forgiving with heat although most list the 104F max that the dual cure emulsions list. I have read in several articles that photopolymers can stand much higher temps, My thermostat went out on dryer box and its been as hot as 128F and the screens exposed fine but I never let get above 95 otherwise.
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Old October 8th, 2015 Oct 8, 2015 10:14:15 PM -   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panduhmonium
I've been having a similar issue with the same emulsion. Only thing is I am having a hard time pinpointing the problem since I recently got a new exposure unit too.

I'll have to give longer drying time a go then. The other day I was able to get 3 good screens (dried for 10 hours) that washed out nicely after burning. I just printed with one though and while I was washing the ink off after printing parts of the design started to peel.

This is pretty unusual behavior for the emulsion for me! I've been using it for about 3 years or so and have never had this issue even with my previous exposure unit which was crap compared to the one I have now. I wonder if it's an issue with the recent batch they have?

Also, do you live in a humid area?
3 years and never had this issue?... Makes me wonder if it's a mixture of humidity AND a bad batch.
That Sben knows his poo though!
 
Old October 9th, 2015 Oct 9, 2015 4:55:53 AM -   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ryonet WBP Dual Cure Hybrid emulsion horrors!

I quickly skimmed through this thread and apologize if someone already said this:

In the final step of reclaiming your screen did you use degreaser?. This is a VERY important step.

As someone else mentioned, let it dry longer.

Another VERY important step:. Did you stir the living day lights out of the emulsion?. Take your quart/gallon and really stir it real good.

Last, simple and stupid but worth mentioning:. Your screens are 100% dry that you are putting the emulsion on right?

The degreaser and stirring the emulsion well are super important and make a huge difference. I hope this helps.

-Jim
 






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