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Is pigment ink online really pigment?

[Epson Printers] 
8K views 39 replies 6 participants last post by  gabbyandzack 
#1 · (Edited)
I bought a CISS set this past summer which I had thought was pigment. I have recently started making stickers and in my tests I noticed the ink was running in the rain. I was curious so I tested my WF1100 vs My HP2410 all in one. The Epson supposedly has the pigment set from a online retailer. Looking at the picture, I received a dye kit-as all the colors but the HP black are running. Just curious what others think.
 
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#2 ·
I bought a CISS set this past summer which I had thought was pigment. I have recently started making stickers and in my tests I noticed the ink was running in the rain. I was curious so I tested my WF1100 vs My HP2410 all in one. The Epson supposedly has the pigment set from a online retailer. Looking at the picture, I received a dye kit-as all the colors but the HP black are running. Just curious what others think.
Pigment is water based so unless it's printed on a waterproof paper it wont be waterproof. There are exceptions. HP I believe is a special formula as wel as some of the Epson inks. Get some waterproof sticker material and the pigment inks will last and won't fade like dye inks.
 
#5 ·
Dye and pigment are both water base inks. They will run unless they have been formulated to water resistant or a waterproof paper is used. Even large format pigment printers require the correct paper or substrate to be water resistant.

Pigment is UV resistant. If heated the particals will cure and become water resistant this is why pigment works well with tshirt transfers vs dye
 
#6 ·
Yes this will make them further weather resistant. Without and waterproof paper usually 1 year with laminate or spray 3-5 years. Clear spray coating from your local hardware store will work but will yellow as arose to the fron juice
 
#7 ·
Thank you. I have just done another test with the durabrite ink that came with the printer and they are not running at all. As far as the outdoor test, I have tried a UV resistant laminate and Frog Juice, both failed my tests(film lifted and spray peeled off). I have other issues which I think are material based and right now I am trying to figure it out. In this photo, these are durabrite ink on the same paper, time elapsed is about the same~5-8 minutes.
 
#9 ·
Ok here is another with the internet inks. Both photos looked very similar when starting.
The top is Epson Durabrite and the bottom is from an online source. I am curious if the Cobra inks do the same, as they are what I am looking at to replace these ones.
most Likely will The durabrite are formulated to be water resistant. I'll see if I can get were we got the paper for decals and stickers from. we used cheap pigment ink for the stickers and saved the cobra for heat transfers were theyy are best suited. The pigment are meant to be UV resistant for like 100+ years. even the durabrite will break down over time from weather
 
#10 ·
I see. So you are saying pigment ink can be formulated differently. I thought pigment was inherently water resistant. I think the 30 dollar price difference in the cobra ink vs where mine is from is worth it for peace of mind that I have the best third party ink I can get-that is unless cobra ink does the same thing.
 
#11 ·
I see. So you are saying pigment ink can be formulated differently. I thought pigment was inherently water resistant. I think the 30 dollar price difference in the cobra ink vs where mine is from is worth it for peace of mind that I have the best third party ink I can get-that is unless cobra ink does the same thing.
cobra are high temp inks meant for heat transfer the extra cost is theirs if formulated to prevent color shift during the heat process and the have ICC profiles for diffrent transfer papers.

I thought the same thing as you about water resistance 10 years ago and learned all about this when printing photos of course I dont think cobra had heat transfer ink back then nor did I know about them
 
#12 ·
I bought a CISS set this past summer which I had thought was pigment. I have recently started making stickers and in my tests I noticed the ink was running in the rain. I was curious so I tested my WF1100 vs My HP2410 all in one. The Epson supposedly has the pigment set from a online retailer. Looking at the picture, I received a dye kit-as all the colors but the HP black are running. Just curious what others think.
Dye inks are water soluble, pigments are not, once the "water" used to carry pigments from the printer has evaporated they are particles. But they can still be washed away.

The dyes are being diluted, the pigments are not "diluted" but the end result is the same. Look closely and see the difference in the spreading of the dye ink.

The pigments still have to be able to "adhere" to something to resist force making them "waterproof". "Trapping" the pigments as another has suggested would be the trick. Good transfer papers for tshirts allow the pigment particles to bind to it and can resist mechanical force.
 
#13 ·
I found an article has an excellent explanation of pigments vs. dyes as it relates to ink jet printing ....

Epson Technical Brief - DuraBrite Ink

But is doesn't mean you can print something on paper, dye or pigment and make it waterproof, you really need to laminate seal and prevent water from getting to the dye (and dissolving it) or keep the pigments from being "pulled" off the paper.
 
#15 ·
Well that is very informative thank you very much. Now what 3rd party bulk ink has the water resistance of the durabrite ink? I have just ordered the Cobra ink set hoping it will be more water resistant. I would like an ink that I can use for everything.
I use Cobra's pigments, but it not just the inks used, the transfer paper itself is a factor, how well it holds the pigments after heat transfer matters. So with Cobra's pigments I use JPSS and Transjet 2.

JPSS has less hand, really none after the first wash and no background window on white tshirts.

TJ2 loses most of the hand after about 3 washes and has some more background window than JPSS.

But the reason I still use TJ2 is I prefer it for 100% cotton, and use JPSS for 50/50. On 100% cotton the shirt fibers can break in the wash, this is called "piling". In printed areas this shows up eventually as a white fuzz.

50/50 thirts have half polyester and those fibers have less piling and are more durable, so the breakage of fibers is lessened overall.

TJ2 always keeps some "hand", so it helps make the shirt a little stronger after many many washes than JPSS does with 100% cotton.

Even with pigment inks if the papers polymer deteriorates too much from washing then less polymer remains to bind the pigments. So you can still get gradual color fade if the paper is not very good.

You need 2 things for a wash durable tshirt.

Pigment inks

Good transfer papers applied properly.

Cobras inks are also just as good as Epsons for regular printing too.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I have made some shirts using JPSS already and some look good, some are iffy. Im just wondering if Cobras inkas are more water resistant than my current ones. I understand it is a combination of factors that determine how waterfast an ink is. I guess I will find out soon enough.

Although, in the link you posted it states that Conventional pigment and the DuraBrite are insoluble so neither should run.
 
#17 ·
I have made some shirts using JPSS already and some look good, some are iffy. Im just wondering if Cobras inkas are more water resistant than my current ones. I understand it is a combination of factors that determine haw waterfast an ink is. I guess I will find out soon enough.
I have used both Epsons durabrite pigments and Cobra's pigments with JPSS and was tested, I can't see any difference in wash durability.

Cobra's inks are not shifting to slight yellow after heat pressing and are much cheaper than Epsons pigments.

JPSS requires proper application and is not an easy peel paper either. After the initial transfer I always cover again with parchment or butchers paper and repress for 10 seconds or so.

A good heat press is required for JPSS, even temp and even pressure across the platen AND lots of pressure. If should be difficult to close and open the press if you apply JPSS correctly.
 
#18 ·
yes, I have the workflow for the jpss down. I am looking at stickers, coasters and other things that may contact water.

Basically my question is- if pigment ink is inherently insoluble, why is my ink running when the durabrite does not on the same paper. This leads me to believe that either I was given a dye ink by mistake, or certain inks are formulated to be more water resistant.

Your link, while excellent, states conventional pigment ink is insoluble and the only con of conventional ink is the color gamut. I will just have to test the inks and come to my own conclusions. 30 dollars difference is negligible compared to using durabrite ink. I have contacted the seller of my current ink to see what they say.
 
#21 ·
Durabrite is a special formula to be more water resistant. Real easy to tell pigment from dye. The pigment is milky and opaque and the dye clear and translucent. You can look at the ink to tell.

This is the way it was explained to me. Durabrite is formulated so that when drying the pigment ink particles fuse together becoming like a shell. Standard pigment ink the particles are lying side by side. This is why once they are heated the melt creating the shell plus fusing to the substrate.
For sticker printing or other purposes I would use the Durabrite with waterproof paper for extra life. There are laminates and spays that won't peel or crack in exterior use.

For t-shirts cobra all the way. But again I know your asking about the stickers. I sublimate all the coasters and small stickers so there is no laminate or spray needed. Of course I also have 7 printers and not everyone has the budget or space.
 
#20 ·
I understand the difference between dye and pigment. I am trying to prove that either I was sent the wrong ink, or there is a difference in different ink manufacturers. How do we know that the pigment advertised is really pigment? This test was to compare my ink to other pigment inks to see how they react in water.

So far:
HP black-pigment, did not run
HP CMY-dye, ran
Durabrite- pigment, did not run
Internet ink-advertised as pigment, ran

All tested on the same sam's club paper.

Conclusion-I have a dye ink set as demonstrated by the tests.

I totally understand this is not a real world scenario. However the fact that the durabrite ink and the HP black did not run at all while left soaking overnight is impressive.

I appreciate your links and information.
 
#22 ·
I understand the difference between dye and pigment. I am trying to prove that either I was sent the wrong ink, or there is a difference in different ink manufacturers. How do we know that the pigment advertised is really pigment? This test was to compare my ink to other pigment inks to see how they react in water.

So far:
HP black-pigment, did not run
HP CMY-dye, ran
Durabrite- pigment, did not run
Internet ink-advertised as pigment, ran

All tested on the same sam's club paper.

Conclusion-I have a dye ink set as demonstrated by the tests.

I totally understand this is not a real world scenario. However the fact that the durabrite ink and the HP black did not run at all while left soaking overnight is impressive.

I appreciate your links and information.
Yes I suspect that those inks you had trouble with were a mixture of both pigment and dyes. Dyes can be brighter and may have been added to "juice up" the ink for pop.
 
#25 ·
Here is my ink, what do you think it is? It looks pretty opaque to me.
Not speaking for the person whom you quoted, but you can't really judge the opacity in the tanks.

You would have to print 2 different inks on the same paper then compare.

It's hard to say exactly what your internet inks actually have in them, your tests seem to indicate there are dyes in there, but could be pigments as well.

Another reason they might mix up the pigments and dyes together is that dye inks are cheaper to make. Kind of like when gas stations are accused of "watering down" their gasolines to make more money.
 
#27 ·
Those don't look right I will post pics later but when I do you will clearly see the difference between dye and pigment. Those actually look like a mix between the 2
 
#28 ·
My 4880 carts I have where I can see the color easily with Cobra pigments look different, my yellow is a much truer yellow, the yellows in the photo look orange if you compare where the inks are in that cart to the yellow color plastic in the base of that colors tank. My cyan and magneta look denser too.
 
#32 ·
I found this thread to be very interesting reading and I think I learned allot from this thread.
THANKS everyone that has posted info, even if OP did not perhaps need some of the info, I did LOL

I just ordered Sub inks, empty refill cartridges, Pigment CISS, for WF1100 and also empty refill cartridges for my R200 Epson.

Does anyone know if I can use SUB inks in the Epson R200? I was thinking since I had that R200 anyway and not using it maybe I would use it for Sublimation work since all that will for now be less than 8x11 anyway.

I'm not sure what type of ink the R200 originally used, Dye or pigment?

And if I use the refill cartridges for one type ink then change my mind is there any problem with running them empty then using the other type ink, like switch from Dye to Pigment? I mean other than colors may not be correct at first?
 
#34 ·
I found this thread to be very interesting reading and I think I learned allot from this thread.
THANKS everyone that has posted info, even if OP did not perhaps need some of the info, I did LOL

I just ordered Sub inks, empty refill cartridges, Pigment CISS, for WF1100 and also empty refill cartridges for my R200 Epson.

Does anyone know if I can use SUB inks in the Epson R200?

You can use them but I am not aware of any ICC profile that any ink vendor or anyone else has created for those. At least not in the US. You need a ICC profile or else the colors will be crazy.

Sub inks tend to be generic for Epson printers, they have ink sets for 4, 6 and 8 color printers. Not printer specific but printer number of colors specific.

I was thinking since I had that R200 anyway and not using it maybe I would use it for Sublimation work since all that will for now be less than 8x11 anyway.

I'm not sure what type of ink the R200 originally used, Dye or pigment?

Dye

And if I use the refill cartridges for one type ink then change my mind is there any problem with running them empty then using the other type ink, like switch from Dye to Pigment? I mean other than colors may not be correct at first?

You never really get them totally used up, always a little ink left. So you would need to take a syringe and remove the remaining ink and then use cart cleaner fluid and then extract that out with a syringe as well. You can do that, but may be less hassle and time just to get a new "virgin" cart set. You don't really want your inks mixed up.
I marked up in your comments above.
 
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