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[Kornit General] I really want a Kornit Breeze.

 
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Old January 23rd, 2010 Jan 23, 2010 9:35:37 PM -   #61 (permalink)
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Default Re: I really want a Kornit Breeze.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PPop
I'm possibly considering a a $50K Kornit Breeze for my Small Clothing Line.
OK!

I'm fresh back from ISS Long Beach and the wonderful T-Shirtforums.com meetup dinner after the show. All I can say is Thank You Rodney for this wonderful board, and the generous all you can eat Banquet/Dinner!

So I bee-lined to the Kornit Booth at 10am, and spent a good 2+ hours printing 2 of my designs, which I'll post pics later. I saw the $55k Breeze. I found it interesting that the Kornit people steered me towards the $90K show special 932NDS single machine. This was mainly due to the "Bullet Proof" known entity of the tried and truely improved 932NDS, and that the New Breeze, though fully functioning was in the "1 up" prototype state.

As Jason posted, the Breeze has all of the components of the 932, but has less expensive components, like the step motors and a "similar, but lower grade head"

I also learned that the heads for the Kornits are a WHOPPING $3,000 each!! x 6!!! Youch!!

It seems like the industrial Kornit is in this realm of 10K Pocket change Corporations, expected by it's owners, quite able to spend the extra $35k over the Brother 782, or the Kornit Breeze...

That said, my conclusion for the Kornit Breeze is that it is like a new, cool Volkswagen Model, good enough for most, where the 932NDS is like a tried and true 911, bulletproof, awesome, etc., and loved by it's owners.

...To buy a Kornit at this moment, it seems much wiser to get the tried and true Kornit 932NDS over the Breeze. Especially since it is brand new. They duly informed me of the periodically available $65K range 932 Refurbished up to 932NDS models which might ultimately be the best choice...

The shirt are pretty good, and the Kornit people were great, and answered all my 74 questions.

After finishing up there, we walked the right half of the room, taking the opportunity to touch and feel Hopkins and Vastek Manual pressed and drummed a few stretched screens.

We later went to the Brother Booth as planned and we did the same 2 designs on the Brother 782. Amazingly, I thought the Brother Shirts were better! They were "Spot On", absolutely perfect and looked exactly like the professionally printed 5 to 14 color silkscreened shirts I have racks of in the warehouse. Wow!

There was a sharpness in detail, clean and smooth solid color areas in both the spot design and the continuous tone designs I brought for both of them to print. The Brother shirts popped like silkscreens while the Kornit shirts were a good percentage duller. The hand on all of the shirts are nice and soft, with 1 pass of white done for all. All shirts were put through a conveyer dryer. Again, I'll post pictures so you can see. I'm sure I could go back to the Kornit Booth and they would optimize the designs to all look great, but the Brother were "spot on".

My conclusion after all of this is to start my "DTG Revolution" by having 2 outside companies (1 Kornit, and 1 Brother) print small quantities of 2-4 designs and introduce them into my line. When it gets to a point where I want my own machine, I will then buy it!
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Old January 24th, 2010 Jan 24, 2010 1:34:35 AM -   #62 (permalink)
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Default Re: I really want a Kornit Breeze.

Thank you for the update Matt.
Makes me wonder:
there must have been something you saw or realized that made you "delay" your DTG purchase....
care to share?
I'm thinking that it has something to do with the Breeze being at the "1 up prototype state (though fully functioning)", and the "similar but lower grade head"?
 
Old January 24th, 2010 Jan 24, 2010 8:44:10 AM -   #63 (permalink)
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Default Re: I really want a Kornit Breeze.

Hey Matt,

We also looked at the Breeze and got a couple of samples.

However, here's what didn't make sense. The Breeze is an entry-level printer, obviously designed to compete with the Brother-782. However, the base price of the Breeze ($55,000), does not include their rip software ($1300.00), freight from Israel ($4000.00), the computer (??), or the free ink they are providing with the 932 show special/package. Also, I was told that ink prices to Breeze owners will be slightly HIGHER. So consumables for the Breeze will add up over the life of the printer faster than the 932 (albeit MUCH less than the GT-782).

The 932 includes their rip software, freight (perhaps they have a bunch of 932's here in the USA already), a computer and free ink (5 liters?) all for the quoted $90,000.

Now, with all that being said, the print from the Breeze is so much softer than the GT-782. One sample is around 10"x12" and has a very light hand.

Nice printer, but I'm interested to see the final package price once the printer is released later this year and the bugs are OUT!!

Eric

Last edited by JPD; January 24th, 2010 at 08:46 AM.. Reason: added timeline for Breeze release
 
 
Old January 24th, 2010 Jan 24, 2010 9:26:44 AM -   #64 (permalink)
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Default Re: I really want a Kornit Breeze.

Hidden cost go figure Ha.
In reality, you'd be spending $60 thous for printer, 5 thous for tech, and 6 thous for heater, and few thous for electrical for Heater.. not so entry anymore huh...

Was Brother Prints Heat press cured or Conveyor Eric, I think that would of made a big difference.
The most important thing in my opinion is customer service, my dealer is about an hour and half away and are on top of there game, Kornit well depends where you are located and if a Tech. is available to answer questions.

Reliability is another big concern, what a 100k paper weight good to anyone and many thinks this thing is gonna be the bomb, when no one know jack about except what bullsh*t dealer is telling you.
Come on you gonna believe company ? Yawn... I will hold my breath on that one... They will prob. tell you it prints hundred dollar bills if it was to get you motivated to buy it.

In all honesty Brother is only company that didnt pull my strings, said very reliable, has issues with dark blues and purples but can be fixed if you do art properly and ink cost was spot on ... Kornit seems to have a few skeletons in their closet of secrets

Unless these companies get cost to do darks down to about $1.50, it is just a loosing battle for larger orders and simple jobs you'll loose to screen printing.
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Old January 24th, 2010 Jan 24, 2010 12:15:44 PM -   #65 (permalink)
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Thumbs down Re: I really want a Kornit Breeze.

I went to the Long Beach show looking to add a DTG printer to our established (20 year) embroidery business. I have learned to go with established companies when dropping major dollars on equipment. Kornit and Brother were on the top of my list. I was flat out disappointed at the Kornit booth. I'm sure they make some great machines, but the Breeze was a let down. I saw better print quality from machines costing less than 20k. The sales rep said the machine still needed to be "dialed in". Perhaps he was correct, but isn't that something you do before the show when introducing a new product? Also, when the rep sensed I was not impressed, he was quick to write me off and not offer to have the settings tweaked for a second review. To me this speaks volumes about the kind of service I would get after the purchase. I think I'll pass. My experience at the Brother booth was quite the opposite. They thoroughly went over the machine. We cured printed shirts on both a belt dryer and a press. We had an extended conversation about print heads, maintenance, printing cost and anything else that came to mind. When I had questions the salesman was unsure of (I liked it when he said he did not know the answer) he brought over some who could answer correctly, instead of B.S.ing his way through. Although I have yet to sign the dotted line, it looks like I may be getting a 782. Anyone else had the same experience or opinions between the two machines?
 
Old January 24th, 2010 Jan 24, 2010 1:44:24 PM -   #66 (permalink)
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Default Re: I really want a Kornit Breeze.

There is discussions on 781, this thing aint out yet so its all hearsay at this time.
Brother as a company as been awesome experience for me so far, dont got 781 but 541 : )
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Old January 24th, 2010 Jan 24, 2010 1:46:10 PM -   #67 (permalink)
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Default Re: I really want a Kornit Breeze.

Thanks Eric.
Yes,I also think that the base price should include their inhouse RIP and a set of inks - I beleive this is the industry standard similar to when buying wide format printers from Roland, Mimaki, etc. The freight cost and the PC are the acceptable add-on cost.
 
Old January 24th, 2010 Jan 24, 2010 3:01:16 PM -   #68 (permalink)
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Default Re: I really want a Kornit Breeze.

Response to a couple of questions:

I have samples printed on the GT-782 from every major show (including SGIA), run through tunnel dryers and heat-pressed, as well as samples from the Breeze, 932, etc. The Kornit prints have a much lighter hand, even after the GT-782 sample is washed. It's the difference in ink felt even when the 782 print is tunnel cured.

iTiki: Most of the images printed at the shows are tweaked to look good. The samples I got from the Breeze were great, with the purples REALLY looking good. However, the Brother folks are one of a few who will print your image at the show (assuming they have time and a buyer who is serious). There was one Israeli rep that was very rude to my wife and I, but it was made up for by a very knowledgeable USA rep who seemed to offer direct answers to my direct questions.

Back to the Kornit Breeze:

Because the Breeze has the pretreatment process built-in, the prices of the printers are comparable up until we get to the Kornit Breeze "extras" and the dryer needed. But, I'd be willing to pay more up front for a printer & dryer in order to avoid the time to prep the shirt and pay less in consumables over the long run.

Here's an example:

My two samples from the Kornit Breeze cost approximately $1.50 each. Since that is what the sales rep told me, let's add a dollar to his price making it $2.50 .

Kornit Breeze:
$2.50 - for a 10" x 12" full coverage print.

Brother GT-782:
$3.57 - Based off ink prices from this complaint thread and this thread where Mark asked what we felt a fair ink price was ($5.00 for 12" x 14", then adjusted to 10" x 12").

The moment the platen exits the printer there is a $1.00+ per print difference in consumables. That adds up fast when you are in production mode (assuming your printer is working properly).

Eric

Last edited by JPD; January 24th, 2010 at 03:02 PM.. Reason: added info
 
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Old January 26th, 2010 Jan 26, 2010 8:19:27 PM -   #69 (permalink)
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Default Re: I really want a Kornit Breeze.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vctradingcubao
Thank you for the update Matt.
Makes me wonder:
there must have been something you saw or realized that made you "delay" your DTG purchase....
care to share?
I'm thinking that it has something to do with the Breeze being at the "1 up prototype state (though fully functioning)", and the "similar but lower grade head"?
Actually it's none of the above.

I really do want a Kornit, or a Brother! I am very excited to be able to offer via DTG, a percentage of the 700 plus designs I have under license. I am thou, very wary of a huge $78,000 investment along with additional ink costs, pretreatment costs, along with the never unenjoyable cost involved with "fighting the bear".

This has nothing to do with the Kornit Breeze not being ready, nor the quality of the Kornit vs Brother Samples. I think the key is that these 2 machines can produce the quality I need.

My initial conclusion, is to "try out a few designs" with a local Brother 782 and a local Kornit printer.

I'll gladly waste the extra $2-4 per print over ink and lease costs times the first 200-500 shirts. It just seems wiser to waste this $500 - $2000 "fee" that it will cost to have someone else print the shirts. I'll get what I need. I know there is a real loss of the instant flexibility that my own DTG can offer, but I hope that within a month, I'll be able to offer long sleeves, short sleeves, Workshirts, wife beaters, boy beaters, etc, and have them printed within a few days.

In addition, I'll have no expensive learning curve. I'll also feel good supporting someone who has made the commitment by giving them some business.

When it seems obvious that I need my own machine, I'll do it!
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Old January 26th, 2010 Jan 26, 2010 8:25:19 PM -   #70 (permalink)
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Default Re: I really want a Kornit Breeze.

Thank you (can't seem to click the "thanks" button... i may have run out of thanks to give away)
 
Old January 27th, 2010 Jan 27, 2010 6:22:17 AM -   #71 (permalink)
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Default Re: I really want a Kornit Breeze.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PPop
I'm possibly considering a a $50K Kornit Breeze for my Small Clothing Line.

The Kornit just feels like the obvious and best DTG option for ease of use, Reliability, Best Ink Cost and Best quality of the print...
We just saw this machine at the print show and it had the absolute worst quality print of them all. The machine sprays on the pre-treat then wipes the shirt down but the fibers do not stay down. The print ends up with a very grainy appearance to it. Because of the filibration the white is not very white and the small wording is hard to read.
I can't imagine how it would do with very fine detail if it is struggling with small text.

The only good thing about the machine is that it's fast .. but what good is fast if you have to sacrifice print quality?

You could lease 2-3 other DTG machines which have better quality to make up for the speed.
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Old January 27th, 2010 Jan 27, 2010 10:24:11 PM -   #72 (permalink)
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Default Re: I really want a Kornit Breeze.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TahoeTomahawk
We just saw this machine at the print show and it had the absolute worst quality print of them all. The machine sprays on the pre-treat then wipes the shirt down but the fibers do not stay down. The print ends up with a very grainy appearance to it. Because of the filibration the white is not very white and the small wording is hard to read.
Yeah. "What's up with that!" The Kornit Prints are grainy, and inferior! From past shows, the Kornit samples were absolutely great!

This worries me, about my initial conclusion that the Kornit was king...

After going to the Bro booth and getting the same samples done, there was a distinct "spot on" quality of the Brother that the Kornit did NOT match. I keep telling everyone who I show the samples that the Kornit can be tweaked and made way better with 2 hits of white matching the more opaque white on the Brother. ...But the Brother 782 prints are ready for selling right now! (As a giclee printer, I would add a lil' detail in the highlights though...)

I do like saving a $1 per print, and the automatic pretreat, but quality is paramount...

This is why I am convinced that the best choice is going the route of trying each machine from a printer before I spend the $2,000 per month for the lease and the inks. Don't forget I am not a "screen printer" and that I need the machine for producing the best shirts for my "line".
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Old January 29th, 2010 Jan 29, 2010 9:56:04 PM -   #73 (permalink)
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Default Re: I really want a Kornit Breeze.

I saw the Kornit Breeze 921 in New Orleans. I heard about it and was very excited, but, it wasn't working. At all! I guess it was just there for show. I then talked to the rep. that was standing by the Kornit Thunder 932, which is a one shirt printer. It was OK...but for that price I could get 3 of small epson printer.

I however, spent a long time talking to the guy operating the Kornit Storm 931-8. Very Nice dude, he said that the machine was the best he had ever operated and the only one he would buy. He probably gets a kickback. He shook his head “no” on the 932.

The 931 is very impressive. But, It puts down so much pre-treater and prints directly onto the wet shirt. I don’t see them being able to get a truly bright white on that wet of a surface. I even joked with the dude running the 931, saying the pre-treater smells like vinegar. He gave me a scientific term for the make-up of the pre-treater “vinegar” and I suggested it would probably taste good with carrots.

I am in love with the fact that it pre-treats. But wow the price tag, ink cost and pre-treater, my fear I will not be able to make my money back on the 931. My orders are 50 - 2000 tees. I really want to embrace the new DTG technology.

The Breeze seems to fill the gap. but I never saw it print so I remain skeptical.

For now I am leaning towards the Brother GT-782 and the viper pre-treater. Because for some reason Brother has a pretty good reputation.

I’m talking with a rep now and I will see what kinda prices he can give me.
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Old February 3rd, 2010 Feb 3, 2010 8:00:59 AM -   #74 (permalink)
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Default Re: I really want a Kornit Breeze.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VBGrafx
... My orders are 50 - 2000 tees. I really want to embrace the new DTG technology.

The Breeze seems to fill the gap. but I never saw it print so I remain skeptical.

For now I am leaning towards the Brother GT-782 and the viper pre-treater. Because for some reason Brother has a pretty good reputation.

I’m talking with a rep now and I will see what kinda prices he can give me.
If your orders are 50 at the minimum then I wouldn't bother with DTG. Are you doing that much photo work? Photos are the only place where a 50 piece order would come close between DTG and Screenprinting.
 
Old February 3rd, 2010 Feb 3, 2010 8:46:27 AM -   #75 (permalink)
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Default Re: I really want a Kornit Breeze.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kornitguy
. . . wouldn't bother with DTG. Are you doing that much photo work? Photos are the only place where a 50 piece order would come close between DTG and Screenprinting.
Are you suggesting that it isn't worth messing with any DTG, unless you are doing photo work. My designs don't always have a photo in them but mostly are multi-colored designs.

I am trying to tap into a shorter run client. (24-150 shirts) But still maintain a high quality design.

What type of equipment are you running?
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