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Fibers sticking up (fibrillation)

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Old May 22nd, 2019 May 22, 2019 9:38:33 AM -   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fibers sticking up (fibrillation)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghoster32111
No one makes pretreat that is sulfate based. That's not a thing. No pretreat is sulfate based because a large majority of people are allergic to sulfates. With the exception of Kornit all pretreatment is a combination of water, salt, resin and possibly a cross linker. It is the fine folks that put the time in to test the resins and salt types to the proper ratios so there is no crystallization, fibrillation staining and all the other problems out there. Some companies do it better than others.
You think? https://www.lawsonsp.com/file-share/...igment_ink.pdf Just sulfate and water.

As for the kornit pretreat... It's acetic acid based.

The brush trick is useless when these pre-treatments.
 
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Old May 22nd, 2019 May 22, 2019 10:09:05 AM -   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fibers sticking up (fibrillation)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TABOB
You think? https://www.lawsonsp.com/file-share/...igment_ink.pdf Just sulfate and water.

As for the kornit pretreat... It's acetic acid based.

The brush trick is useless when these pre-treatments.
Ok so there a few holes in what your saying first off the Fastbright pretreatment is discontinued and is 13 years old. here is Epsons https://www.equipmentzone.com/msds/e...id-t736100.pdf

https://www.garmentprinterink.com/im...ETREATMENT.pdf

Not sulfates and water. The reason sulfate pretreat is not a thing and discontinued is because A. it did not work well and B. made people sick. Ask any old school T-Jet user. Yes Kornit is an acid based pretreatment that works on a completely reversed chemistry level as every other printer. And yes you brush all of these pretrement to reduce fibrillation. Including the Kornit pretreat because every machine that Kornit makes has an internal squeegee that is used to lay down the fibers. Its cool if you do not want to brush shirts that's your choice but it 100% helps and can overall reduce the amount of pretreat that you use because you do not need to drown it to lay it down.
 
Old May 22nd, 2019 May 22, 2019 1:28:42 PM -   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fibers sticking up (fibrillation)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghoster32111
Ok so there a few holes in what your saying first off the Fastbright pretreatment is discontinued and is 13 years old. here is Epsons https://www.equipmentzone.com/msds/e...id-t736100.pdf

https://www.garmentprinterink.com/im...ETREATMENT.pdf

Not sulfates and water. The reason sulfate pretreat is not a thing and discontinued is because A. it did not work well and B. made people sick. Ask any old school T-Jet user. Yes Kornit is an acid based pretreatment that works on a completely reversed chemistry level as every other printer. And yes you brush all of these pretrement to reduce fibrillation. Including the Kornit pretreat because every machine that Kornit makes has an internal squeegee that is used to lay down the fibers. Its cool if you do not want to brush shirts that's your choice but it 100% helps and can overall reduce the amount of pretreat that you use because you do not need to drown it to lay it down.
It makes no difference, because my point is about the type of the pre-treat and NOT about its composition. The Epson and Fiberbird pre-treats you've mentioned are film forming ones, and the film is what's keeping the fibers flat.

Kornit pre-treated shirts are printed while wet, and the moisture is keeping the fibers flat. Also you cannot use this pre-treat with an Epson printer.


Brent said he is using Lawson pre-treat, so I read the first SDS I found on their page. Obviously it is discontinued, BUT they now selling another pre-treat which is just Inorganic Nitrate and water https://www.lawsonsp.com/file-share/...treatment_.pdf This is not a film-forming pre-treat.
 
 
Old May 23rd, 2019 May 23, 2019 8:58:01 AM -   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fibers sticking up (fibrillation)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TABOB
It makes no difference, because my point is about the type of the pre-treat and NOT about its composition. The Epson and Fiberbird pre-treats you've mentioned are film forming ones, and the film is what's keeping the fibers flat.

Kornit pre-treated shirts are printed while wet, and the moisture is keeping the fibers flat. Also you cannot use this pre-treat with an Epson printer.


Brent said he is using Lawson pre-treat, so I read the first SDS I found on their page. Obviously it is discontinued, BUT they now selling another pre-treat which is just Inorganic Nitrate and water https://www.lawsonsp.com/file-share/...treatment_.pdf This is not a film-forming pre-treat.
I'm not going to argue about high school chemistry with you. The brush trick is viable and helpful for all the pretreats mentioned including the Lawson like the OP is using it will lay down more fibers than just the heat press. It is not necessary to brush the shirt but if you are having fibers sticking up brushing will help lay them down it is a pretty simple thing to do to make your prints not suck. of course you can spray more pretreat and risk getting crystallization staining and discoloring and of course spend more money to lay down the fibers or you can use a brush. And not risk any of those things.
 
Old May 23rd, 2019 May 23, 2019 11:06:21 AM -   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fibers sticking up (fibrillation)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghoster32111
I'm not going to argue about high school chemistry with you. The brush trick is viable and helpful for all the pretreats mentioned including the Lawson like the OP is using it will lay down more fibers than just the heat press. It is not necessary to brush the shirt but if you are having fibers sticking up brushing will help lay them down it is a pretty simple thing to do to make your prints not suck. of course you can spray more pretreat and risk getting crystallization staining and discoloring and of course spend more money to lay down the fibers or you can use a brush. And not risk any of those things.
You are arguing with yourself obviously. I've already said that the brush method will help with all film forming pre-treats, when tunnel drying.
Still, the important thing is the type of pre-treat used.
 
Old May 23rd, 2019 May 23, 2019 11:58:42 AM -   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fibers sticking up (fibrillation)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TABOB
You are arguing with yourself obviously. I've already said that the brush method will help with all film forming pre-treats, when tunnel drying.
Still, the important thing is the type of pre-treat used.
Yes I agree it does matter what type of pretreat is used because however all pretreat forms a film when the pretreat is dried this gives the ink its wash ability in these systems and vibrancy and different pretreatments do this better than others. But the point is reguardless how you dry it either heat press, tunnel dryer, cabinet dryer, hang drying or blowing on it until it is dry the brushing method will help lay down fibers and give a better print. I bet that FBNick can probably agree with me as he works for a manufacturer of pretreat that I know for a fact because I use it with a heat press is......wait for it...... wait for it......better when you brush it versus not brushing it in terms of laying down fibers to give it a nice even film base when I print.
 
Old May 24th, 2019 May 24, 2019 3:57:15 AM -   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fibers sticking up (fibrillation)

We use the Lawson machine and treatment with Gildan 2000 shirts and do not have the issue you are having. We treat at an 8 and go with a single pass on lighter colors and on darker colors use an 8 and then a second pass at 10. We are using kraft paper from Stahls on the shirts in the press to dry. If the paper sticks at all to the shirt it will pull up the fibers. If that is happening you are either not pressing long enough or the paper needs to be changed. As the humidity increases the amount of dry time goes up. We just moved up to 60 seconds but were pressing for 40 seconds over the winter.


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Old May 24th, 2019 May 24, 2019 6:51:32 AM -   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fibers sticking up (fibrillation)

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Originally Posted by bakedts
If the paper sticks at all to the shirt it will pull up the fibers.
Excellent point. Common sense for most people... but you never know.
 
Old May 24th, 2019 May 24, 2019 3:57:58 PM -   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fibers sticking up (fibrillation)

I ditched those stupid papers long ago. Best teflon sheets can be bought from the GeoKnight heat press people.

The Stahl's teflon sheets are way too thin for my tastes.
 






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