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Random Auto Clean Wastage

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Old November 18th, 2015 Nov 18, 2015 2:39:36 PM -   #1 (permalink)
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Default Random Auto Clean Wastage

If you thought your monthly maintenance costs for the F2000 were limited to morning head cleans and the monthly white tube flush well think again.

The main point of this post is to educate those considering the F2000 as an all day production printer because everyone needs to be aware of just how much ink this machine wastes every month if you're using it regularly. I wasn't advised of this extra wastage when I was considering my F2000 purchase.

My printer runs all day every day and these random auto cleans have been really pissing me off for sometime now. This is why I've pulled the drain tube from the tub and measured exactly how much ink these cleans waste. I've also started keeping a diary of their frequency and times they occur. (See pics below)

The figures are in and the results are shocking. Other than the senseless ink wastage and cost of these cleans, what frustrates me the most is:

1. If you're running every day there is simply no reason for these auto-cleans!
2. If you've just cleaned the head there is simply no reason for an auto-clean immediately after!
3. If you've just cleaned the head and printed 5 shirts there is simply no reason for auto-clean immediately after!
4. If you've already suffered an auto clean in the morning and the printer is printing fine, there is simply no reason for an auto-clean later that day!

I pay $0.47 per ml for Epson ink in my country, and as much as the extra cost in wasted ink every month is disappointing, what one really needs to consider is how many shirts you could print with 420ml of ink? What profits am I missing out on there? The machine already requires you to waste 330ml of white ink on the monthly flush, and when you add the wastage from the auto cleans, you're actually looking at wasting 750ml of ink every month using this machine regularly.

I've contacted Epson about this auto-clean issue and this was their reply:

"All piezo inkjets use some ink for cleaning purposes. The unit makes a decision to clean based on a number of factors. This ensures the reliability of the unit, you just need to look at the remanufactured DTG units and their unreliability to witness this. The user manual should outline the cleaning process."

To me, that explanation is unacceptable, and Epson need to address the issue and make changes to the firmware to stop these random auto cleans, or at the very least give the user the option to avoid them.




 
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Old November 18th, 2015 Nov 18, 2015 10:01:43 PM -   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Random Auto Clean Wastage

This is amazing news... i never realized the Epson wastes 35 mL for each auto clean it does..... if this is accurate, I am in complete shock. I actually want to check this out myself.

I say this because I print quite often on the 2 Epsons I own.

I receive at least one autocleaning a day for each Epson... sometimes two, hell even 3 here and there.

So on average, if I say 3 autocleanings a day, this is 15 autocleanings a week.

15x35 = 525 ml.

And sometimes I print on the weekend, so lets just round up to 600mL.

600mL here in USA is $207. so you are saying I am flushing $828 down the drain a year with my 2 epsons? so $10k a year?


If this is indeed true, it is ridiculous and something should be done to prevent all of these cleans. I hope for some reason it is not actually 35 mL, but I will test myself tomorrow.
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Old November 18th, 2015 Nov 18, 2015 11:20:30 PM -   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Random Auto Clean Wastage

Brandon, it's nuts mate. I'm not whinging raising this issue because I'm a business owner and the 'bottom line' is everything to me. Owning two F2000's would be double the waste. Good God man!

I've been so fed up with these auto cleans so I've recorded the relative information. Do the same and you'll understand what I already know.

And for anyone suggesting we should factor the wastage into our bottom line, here's some bullets:

One F2000, running all day every day, wastes on average 420ml of ink per month through random auto cleaning.
Add the 330ml ink wastage for the monthly white line flush.
That's 750ml of wasted ink per month.
That equates to 9 litres of wasted ink per year.

Price that out yourselves given your currency, and x2 If you own more than one F2000.

Epson need to get on this. Because I would NEVER buy another F2000 as a production printer. The F2000 is a kick arse DTG printer, but when you run it hard it goes into 'toy/stupid' mode too often.
Epson just need to address that and bring out a new ECU/firmware for those that want to thrash it!

Last edited by Mammath; November 19th, 2015 at 12:29 AM..
 
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Old November 19th, 2015 Nov 19, 2015 12:15:27 AM -   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Random Auto Clean Wastage

Yes I will be documenting and running a test myself now to see how much is being wasted per machine for sure.

I can see why you are fed up.. I would have been earlier too but just did not know how much ink is being used in the auto clean. I thought it was less, but guess I was wrong.

I will comment later with results for my use of the epsons
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Old November 19th, 2015 Nov 19, 2015 12:44:23 AM -   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Random Auto Clean Wastage

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASID Clothing
Yes I will be documenting and running a test myself now to see how much is being wasted per machine for sure.

I can see why you are fed up.. I would have been earlier too but just did not know how much ink is being used in the auto clean. I thought it was less, but guess I was wrong.

I will comment later with results for my use of the epsons
Yes, get on it mate. Nothing will change unless there is support for new firmware.
 
Old November 19th, 2015 Nov 19, 2015 4:24:57 AM -   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Random Auto Clean Wastage

If those numbers really do apply to all units and not some random faulty ones perhaps, then I agree this IS completely ridiculous and something MUST be done to push Epson to investigate & remedy this.

I myself AM running the F2000 with DTG as my only main method production (maybe just a tiny 1% vinyl transfers) and also print all day every day usually 6-7 days a week. My business is retail based, not wholesale (not interested in charging $7 for a DTG printed shirt even if it's for 5000 of them - that's better suited for screen printers IMO) but even though I am able to charge retail pricing per item, it seems that the bulk of my profits is being depleted on monthly biz expenses...$100 per head replacement kits, $100 air filters, $70 PT, high quality tees, but I've been MOSTLY surprised & disappointed by how much white ink I've consumed!! I've only needed one new ink cartridge of each CMKY since I started printing on it in June, but have been forced to buy 2 new white ink cartridges almost every 2 weeks now! At $205 a pop that $820 USD a month!! I was assuming it must just be due to countless hours and endless test prints I've been doing trying to learn & perfect the process...and this must be normal startup costs so was hoping once I do finally figure everything & get more streamlined production process in place it would get less costly to run. Apparently and sadly that doesn't seem to be the case.

Since Epson is COMPLETELY aware of these so called "random" auto cleanings, the necessary daily head cleanings just to get the white inks started, the frustrating but required monthly white ink tube flushes, and the fact that we can not print on ANY dark colored or black shirt without white ink, then the best thing they could & should do is lower the price of the ink cartridges by AT LEAST 50%!! Especially considering we ALWAYS have to buy TWO at a time (when would anyone ever need just one??)! This would help me swallow the large "just accept it & deal with it" pill they're asking us to take. We are not "beta" users...WE PAID FULL PRICE & A LOT OF MONEY FOR THIS PRINTER UPFRONT!! Heck, even BMW & Mercedes dealerships offer FREE monthly maintenance packages to help alleviate the high costs of ownership and show appreciation to their new & existing customers! I don't expect Epson would EVER do that at all (would be FANTASTIC though wouldn't it?!! Lol) but definitely think lowering the prices on white inks would be the most reasonable & ethical solution to the problem as it is not operator related.

Thank you for raising awareness on this matter Mammoth, if I would have access to this kind of knowledge from actual owners (not sales reps) when deciding to purchase, then I would have truly reconsidered my decision. I love my business & am proud to say it's going very well, so ad business grows I plan to purchase DTG printer to accommodate. HOWEVER even though I love the capabilities & possibilities of my F2000, I would absolutely NOT even consider buying another one of these at all unless something changes before then.
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Old November 19th, 2015 Nov 19, 2015 5:45:52 AM -   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Random Auto Clean Wastage

Quote:
Originally Posted by COPEM CUSTOMS
if I would have access to this kind of knowledge from actual owners (not sales reps) when deciding to purchase, then I would have truly reconsidered my decision.
Although we no longer sell the F2000, we were one of the original 6 companies to do so. None of this information was disclosed to us and as more printers get into the hands of owners, more and more people are seeing this kind of behavior. I don't think sales reps ever knew this kind of information and most likely the vast majority still do not. Bringing this information to light will help end users make a decision on this printer for their company. Full disclosure is important as a rep and any type of information we had that may not have been the most positive, like using 333ml of white ink during a monthly flush, we still disclosed this information to all of our customers prior to their purchase.
 
Old November 19th, 2015 Nov 19, 2015 6:07:22 AM -   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Random Auto Clean Wastage

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeridHill
Although we no longer sell the F2000, we were one of the original 6 companies to do so. None of this information was disclosed to us and as more printers get into the hands of owners, more and more people are seeing this kind of behavior. I don't think sales reps ever knew this kind of information and most likely the vast majority still do not. Bringing this information to light will help end users make a decision on this printer for their company. Full disclosure is important as a rep and any type of information we had that may not have been the most positive, like using 333ml of white ink during a monthly flush, we still disclosed this information to all of our customers prior to their purchase.
Jerid,

Could you post us a comparison (using the same type of detailed diary Mammath gave us) between EPSON and Genesis?
 
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Old November 19th, 2015 Nov 19, 2015 6:15:15 AM -   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Random Auto Clean Wastage

Quote:
Originally Posted by api
Jerid,

Could you post us a comparison (using the same type of detailed diary Mammath gave us) between EPSON and Genesis?
In order to not hijack the thread, I sent you a PM....
 
Old November 19th, 2015 Nov 19, 2015 11:29:11 AM -   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Random Auto Clean Wastage

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeridHill
In order to not hijack the thread, I sent you a PM....
Me too please! We are in the market.
 
Old November 19th, 2015 Nov 19, 2015 12:52:33 PM -   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Random Auto Clean Wastage

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeridHill
Although we no longer sell the F2000, we were one of the original 6 companies to do so. None of this information was disclosed to us and as more printers get into the hands of owners, more and more people are seeing this kind of behavior. I don't think sales reps ever knew this kind of information and most likely the vast majority still do not. Bringing this information to light will help end users make a decision on this printer for their company. Full disclosure is important as a rep and any type of information we had that may not have been the most positive, like using 333ml of white ink during a monthly flush, we still disclosed this information to all of our customers prior to their purchase.
I understand that Jerid - and I am sure any reputable sales rep such as yourself would have disclosed that info to a potential customer and I honestly didn't mean to insinuate you all were in on some big conspiracy with Epson or anything lol I really don't blame any of you at all - Epson is 100% responsible for this in my opinion. If they didn't know about it before, fine, but we know that they do now but still aren't doing anything to fix it or explain it or compensate for our losses!

Coincidently, right after I posted my response, my machine decided to go went haywire all of a sudden...i swear it is as if some Epson spies read it then decided to remotely screw up my printer as punishment for posting it! Lol ok I know that's not actually possible...or is it? so now I need to vent a lil more....

Ok, Here's what happened...i got a perfect nozzle check this morning (just replaced the print head cleaners very late last night so had already done the daily cleaning) but then I discovered my drain tubes were clogged at the tip with dried up white ink, and this had caused a backup of ink into the printer!! So I decided to cut the very end of the tube to remove the clog, and then ink sprayed all over the place!! Very tough cleaning up outside where it sprayed and inside where it had backed up inside the printer as well...it was a nightmare...But wait, there's more!! After cleaning up, I was then prompted by the printer to do a white tube flush...AGAIN (I just did one 2 weeks ago!). I figured it was because he tubes were clogged since last time I had done one so it had to be done again properly, so I reluctantly did. After that was done, I did another nozzle check just to find that I had now lost white channels 3&4!! I wasn't able to get them back until after I did 4 light, 3 medium and then one heavy cleaning plus a thorough cleaning of the capping station. SERIOUSLY?! I JUST bought two new white ink cartridges LAST WEEK but after all this, they are both almost empty again...so now I'm actually even more upset & frustrated then I was this morning!

IT WAS A REALLY AWFUL MORNING!! What in the world happened?? Has this ever happened to anyone before? We are talking $414 down the drain, Epson people!! Even though I was able to get back to normal. I am still going to call them because I can't afford to be out of production even a day if that happens again without me being able to fix it.

Ok...vent session #2 is OVER now. Lol
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Old November 19th, 2015 Nov 19, 2015 12:55:18 PM -   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Random Auto Clean Wastage

Wow, sorry to hear your issues. Hope things are better now. As for offending me, no worries, no offense taken, just trying to bring a little clarification as to our position as a rep.
 
Old November 19th, 2015 Nov 19, 2015 12:55:53 PM -   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Random Auto Clean Wastage

If your talking about the auto clean, this can be turned off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOBN...HaU7i&index=29
 
Old November 19th, 2015 Nov 19, 2015 1:15:36 PM -   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Random Auto Clean Wastage

Quote:
Originally Posted by COPEM CUSTOMS
I understand that Jerid - and I am sure any reputable sales rep such as yourself would have disclosed that info to a potential customer and I honestly didn't mean to insinuate you all were in on some big conspiracy with Epson or anything lol I really don't blame any of you at all - Epson is 100% responsible for this in my opinion. If they didn't know about it before, fine, but we know that they do now but still aren't doing anything to fix it or explain it or compensate for our losses!

Coincidently, right after I posted my response, my machine decided to go went haywire all of a sudden...i swear it is as if some Epson spies read it then decided to remotely screw up my printer as punishment for posting it! Lol ok I know that's not actually possible...or is it? so now I need to vent a lil more....

Ok, Here's what happened...i got a perfect nozzle check this morning (just replaced the print head cleaners very late last night so had already done the daily cleaning) but then I discovered my drain tubes were clogged at the tip with dried up white ink, and this had caused a backup of ink into the printer!! So I decided to cut the very end of the tube to remove the clog, and then ink sprayed all over the place!! Very tough cleaning up outside where it sprayed and inside where it had backed up inside the printer as well...it was a nightmare...But wait, there's more!! After cleaning up, I was then prompted by the printer to do a white tube flush...AGAIN (I just did one 2 weeks ago!). I figured it was because he tubes were clogged since last time I had done one so it had to be done again properly, so I reluctantly did. After that was done, I did another nozzle check just to find that I had now lost white channels 3&4!! I wasn't able to get them back until after I did 4 light, 3 medium and then one heavy cleaning plus a thorough cleaning of the capping station. SERIOUSLY?! I JUST bought two new white ink cartridges LAST WEEK but after all this, they are both almost empty again...so now I'm actually even more upset & frustrated then I was this morning!

IT WAS A REALLY AWFUL MORNING!! What in the world happened?? Has this ever happened to anyone before? We are talking $414 down the drain, Epson people!! Even though I was able to get back to normal. I am still going to call them because I can't afford to be out of production even a day if that happens again without me being able to fix it.

Ok...vent session #2 is OVER now. Lol
This is one of the reasons I have crossed Epson off my list! Thank you!
 
Old November 19th, 2015 Nov 19, 2015 1:20:21 PM -   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Random Auto Clean Wastage

I have read your information and I am not sure if you have used another printer beside the F2000 or not. I have the Epson F2000 and I also have a DTG Summit which uses an Epson 4880 printhead. What you are talking about was one of my main concerns is why I bought the Summit before I bought the Epson. Once I got the Epson I have tracked the ink usage from the Summit and the ink usage from the Epson. With the Summit which is an Epson based machine and having to do 2-3 head cleanings on start up, it does automatic head cleanings throughout the day & having to do 2-3 head cleanings after lunch and head cleanings throughout the rest of the day. Now my measurements are based on how much ink was in my waste ink container. My ink waste with the Summit is much more than the Epson. I run my Epson in a production mode and mine does not do as many automatic head cleanings as yours. I have heard and read that some Epson printers do the tube washing more frequent than every 30 days and all you have to do is call Epson and they have to go in and make an adjustment and it will not do that as often. Maybe you need to have Epson remote in and check the internal settings of your machine. My ink cost has not gone up much since changing to the Epson due to the ability to go in and change the ink density on my white bases but the Epson does give me a much better print than the Summit for almost the same cost. I am very happy with my Epson F2000 on its performance, ink usage, ink waste, and print quality (I do approximately 1800-2500 shirts per month). I have talked to several people that have the Epson F2000 and they are happy with the performance as I. I have been doing DTG for 9 years and have owned 4 different types of printers over the years as technology has advanced. It is my opinion that the Epson F2000 is the best printer on the market today.

Now, I have also found out that the shirt you use, the way you apply your pretreat, and the amount of pretreat you use on your shirt, has a lot to do with the ink usage during the printing that the machine uses. Not for sure what your ink cost is in your country but the ink cost in the USA is how I based mine. I am a very happy and satisfied F2000 owner and do not want to see it get a bad reputation over some possible bad internal settings in the machine. I got my F2000 from Equipment Zone. I am sure if you contacted Equipment Zone they would be more than happy to help you resolve your problem. I know they work closely with Epson and I have read on the Forum they have helped resolved some issues that other dealers was not able to solve.
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