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NeoRip 2000 vs Garment Creator on Epson DTG

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Old March 28th, 2014 Mar 28, 2014 3:42:15 PM -   #46 (permalink)
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Default Re: NeoRip 2000 vs Garment Creator on Epson DTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeridHill
I've personally printed shirts that had white layers generated using that appeared more like your print from RIP.
How about showing us?
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Old March 28th, 2014 Mar 28, 2014 6:09:57 PM -   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: NeoRip 2000 vs Garment Creator on Epson DTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Printzilla
How about showing us?
We are waiting for our printer to come back from Epson. Once it's back, I'll print some samples and show both ways the white can be generated.
 
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Old March 28th, 2014 Mar 28, 2014 11:54:19 PM -   #48 (permalink)
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Default Re: NeoRip 2000 vs Garment Creator on Epson DTG

Looking forward to it.
 
 
Old March 29th, 2014 Mar 29, 2014 12:05:45 AM -   #49 (permalink)
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Default Re: NeoRip 2000 vs Garment Creator on Epson DTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeridHill
We are waiting for our printer to come back from Epson. Once it's back, I'll print some samples and show both ways the white can be generated.
i will be waiting too

since neorip2000 will be avaiable for AA Epson Customer only, while im outside us

its epson anyway, tthey have the unlimited resource and IT tech to mimic/copy Khotari RIP if they trying.....

i hope it can stop black ink printing in black shirt too!
 
Old March 29th, 2014 Mar 29, 2014 1:12:50 AM -   #50 (permalink)
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Default Re: NeoRip 2000 vs Garment Creator on Epson DTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by allamerican
Not mentioned Ink saving and time on 3rd party RIP. 40% plus minus is lots of money to me. Doesn't it to you Jerid?
Cheers! Inks are om me always.
Peter, This must be about the 5th or 6th post where you promote how a RIP can save you money, by saving on the underbase. While in general I like that as we also sell a RIP, you know (or at least I hope you know) its a loaded statement.

So for clarity I want to make two points about this statement.
1. Garment Creator works with PNG and transparency in the same way a RIP does, so if you setup the image in Photoshop with transparency first you can save just as much ink as the RIP. Just be setting up areas with transparency as required.
Also GC (at least the version I have) does not do the blends well when you remove a background such as black (I know Jerid has a different version that he tells me does and I do believe him as its not rocket science and its Epson we are talking about), so in GC the workflow is design for you to do this post processing in Photoshop.
So GC can be used to save ink or not the same as a RIP, just depends how you setup your workflow.

2. I have had several discussion with various people in Epson, on 3 different continents and all said they same thing and that is the pre treatment is design to bind to the white not the CMYK and for durability when washing you need white between any colors and the shirt. So there will be a compromising in saving ink and durability.

Peter I am sure you will come back with a reply and just so you know I am not trying to start a fight about this, just trying to put some clarity on your statements as I want users to make a well educated decision when purchasing these machines and buy a RIP for the right reasons.

The right reasons are we produce
better quality,
its faster (both to RIP and print),
its easier to use (much easier),
provide greater control over the work flow for advance user
provide easy to use tools for novice users who are not experts in Photoshop
In short it a complete production management system and much more than a simple driver.

Best regards

-David
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Old March 29th, 2014 Mar 29, 2014 1:57:07 AM -   #51 (permalink)
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Default Re: NeoRip 2000 vs Garment Creator on Epson DTG

Dave - as one of the resident RIP experts, can you elaborate on why some RIP's produce a smoother, higher quality, crisper image than others? I am not talking about color reproduction, speed, profiling, linearization, etc.....but why with the same hardware, same ink, same environment, same art, one print looks substantially better.

Especially interested in why some RIP's handle fades and gradients so much better. Some of the best prints I remember getting were on the original Tjets using the Epson driver and two passes on white T's. (I know that is easier than a dark T with an under base) If you used the outer glow feature from Photoshop on an oval, and then feathered the selection, the gradient with the Epson driver was a smooth seamless transition, on some of the later machines and RIP's the gradient was much less smooth and very stepped.

As another example, there is a flaming guitar logo that gets used around here quite a bit. Some of the RIP's reproduce the flames and the fade out to the shirt smoothly, reproducing the image perfectly, the rest........not so much.

Sorry for the rambling, but I have wondered about this for years.
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Old March 29th, 2014 Mar 29, 2014 2:06:01 AM -   #52 (permalink)
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Default Re: NeoRip 2000 vs Garment Creator on Epson DTG

Good morning David,
1st. There are no topic was not repeated in TSF. All are repeated by different person, date, place ---.
Matter of fact you should repeat this more if you do not mind. Great education and great info to who are Newbie in TSF. No newbies will read 1,432,597 posts here.
2nd. Your long post (always admire, dislike other's long one) is Not much different stream than mine. You used way better English than mine. I will trade in with everything I have on your English. because this is one wish I will never archive.
3rd. You are the last person I want to fight(debate) with. Your RIP knowledge is way deeper than mine. Also, you are very nice guy who I want to go fishing with and drinking beer. Can I invite you to my boat? Lol.
Bottom line is
Choose RIP is as important as Choose Printer because as you said INK saving is the biggest.
We do not want to 70s 8 cylinder Chevy mileage. Right?
I will copy yours and repeatedly post for remind to newbies. Since you are not favor for repeating.
Heading out to Aeoon Austria this afternoon again. I was there last week. It's fun except flying. Customer from Germany want to meet Managing Director(in USA president)
I hope I will have beers with you at FESPA 5/20-23 Munich.
Aeoon is 1.5 hour way.
Cheers! Beers are on me always.
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Last edited by allamerican; March 29th, 2014 at 03:49 AM..
 
Old March 29th, 2014 Mar 29, 2014 3:29:30 AM -   #53 (permalink)
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Default Re: NeoRip 2000 vs Garment Creator on Epson DTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by madfenix
i will be waiting too

***since neorip2000 will be avaiable for AA Epson Customer only, while im outside USA***

its epson anyway, !
None Sense!!!! Available to ALL! No matter where you are No matter who you bought from. All Rip suppliers have no problem to send demo to you for free.
Just PM away.
Cheers! Rips are on me always.
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Old March 29th, 2014 Mar 29, 2014 6:36:51 AM -   #54 (permalink)
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Default Re: NeoRip 2000 vs Garment Creator on Epson DTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Printzilla
Dave - as one of the resident RIP experts, can you elaborate on why some RIP's produce a smoother, higher quality, crisper image than others? I am not talking about color reproduction, speed, profiling, linearization, etc.....but why with the same hardware, same ink, same environment, same art, one print looks substantially better.

Especially interested in why some RIP's handle fades and gradients so much better. Some of the best prints I remember getting were on the original Tjets using the Epson driver and two passes on white T's. (I know that is easier than a dark T with an under base) If you used the outer glow feature from Photoshop on an oval, and then feathered the selection, the gradient with the Epson driver was a smooth seamless transition, on some of the later machines and RIP's the gradient was much less smooth and very stepped.

As another example, there is a flaming guitar logo that gets used around here quite a bit. Some of the RIP's reproduce the flames and the fade out to the shirt smoothly, reproducing the image perfectly, the rest........not so much.

Sorry for the rambling, but I have wondered about this for years.
I wish I could answer this in a single paragraph, but I cant.
There are all sorts of reasons why a gradient can print smoother with one driver / RIP than another.

As an example the way the ink volumes are handled and the screening can cause stepping in the output, when creating the design you typically have 256 shades of each primary, but if you use a simple 256 color lookup table (transfer curve) and a 256 color screening system and used the transfer curve to control the ink limits, then if you ink back 50%, you end up with only 128 colors. So that could be a reason.
By the way we use a 16bit screening system (64,000 shades) and we do this so that no matter how far we ink back with the transfer curve we always have way more than 256 shades. You would actually have to ink back to less that 1/256 of the total ink volume before you would effectively lose any shades.

Another example is a gradient in Illustrator or Corel can be output in different ways.
In PDF or as a PS level 3 file it can use shaded fills which describe the gradient in a pure maths form and not limited by a color space (think between 0 and 1 and any number 12 decimal places rather than a simple 1 to 256.
However if you print through a GDI (Windows) driver or as a bitmap then you are limited to the 1 to 256 range.

The flaming guitar which I have seen and is printed on a black shirt with white is a bitmap and the good and bad prints of this have more to do with the approach to handling white ink and working on black shirts than anything else (typically). This is really down to fixing the white ink generated for an image and profiling techniques, so that you get a known amount of black removal and compensate for this via the profile to get shadow details.

So I know you said its not about profiling, linearization, but all this is very much a part of it and can be part of a problem.


Best regards

-David
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Old March 29th, 2014 Mar 29, 2014 7:19:05 AM -   #55 (permalink)
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Default Re: NeoRip 2000 vs Garment Creator on Epson DTG

Thanks for adding some logical and useful information here David.
 
Old March 29th, 2014 Mar 29, 2014 5:08:26 PM -   #56 (permalink)
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Default Re: NeoRip 2000 vs Garment Creator on Epson DTG

Dave - awesome reply! I have a follow up, with an example.

In the pic below, focusing on the area to the left of the upper neck, is it the white under base management, or a more restricted color LUT(look up table), that causes the print on the right to not transition as smoothly at the edges as the print on the left? Or is it both? If both, which do you deem more critical in getting the smooth gradients and transitions?

Thanks for taking the time to help us "cavemen" understand fire........

Zilla
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Old March 29th, 2014 Mar 29, 2014 5:44:58 PM -   #57 (permalink)
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Default Re: NeoRip 2000 vs Garment Creator on Epson DTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Printzilla
Dave - awesome reply! I have a follow up, with an example.

In the pic below, focusing on the area to the left of the upper neck, is it the white under base management, or a more restricted color LUT(look up table), that causes the print on the right to not transition as smoothly at the edges as the print on the left? Or is it both? If both, which do you deem more critical in getting the smooth gradients and transitions?

Thanks for taking the time to help us "cavemen" understand fire........

Zilla
Did you print the examples? Which brand and version did you use?
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Old March 29th, 2014 Mar 29, 2014 6:10:20 PM -   #58 (permalink)
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Default Re: NeoRip 2000 vs Garment Creator on Epson DTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazographics
Did you print the examples? Which brand and version did you use?
I do not want to turn this into mine is better than yours thread, I just want to keep it generic. If you want the details, search "choosing proper dtg rip", it's an old thread, and I just borrowed the pics.
 
Old March 29th, 2014 Mar 29, 2014 6:57:46 PM -   #59 (permalink)
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Default Re: NeoRip 2000 vs Garment Creator on Epson DTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Printzilla
I do not want to turn this into mine is better than yours thread, I just want to keep it generic. If you want the details, search "choosing proper dtg rip", it's an old thread, and I just borrowed the pics.
Where did you get the idea that I was going to one up you? I was just curious to know if the example shown was used with two different Rips and which versions. There is a significant difference between the two. Thats what this thread is about. Comparing Rips.
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Old March 29th, 2014 Mar 29, 2014 7:01:39 PM -   #60 (permalink)
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Default Re: NeoRip 2000 vs Garment Creator on Epson DTG

NeoRip is on the left.
 
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