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[DTG Brand] Viper 2 or Epson SureColor F2000

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Old July 24th, 2015 Jul 24, 2015 2:56:52 PM -   #1 (permalink)
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Arrow Viper 2 or Epson SureColor F2000

Hello, Im looking to buy our first DTG Printer and were leaning towards the Viper2, but after weeks of research it starting to sound like it may be a bad investment. We recently starting to take a look at the Epson Sure color F2000.

Does anyone own or have had good or bad experiences with either of these two printers, we will greatly appreciate everyone's opinion on these printers.
 
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Old July 25th, 2015 Jul 25, 2015 3:50:31 AM -   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viper 2 or Epson SureColor F2000

I had a Viper (not a Viper2) and purchased an F2000 to replace it. The overall speed and print quality of the F2000 is much better however the costs are higher. I used the Kothari PrintPro Rip on both printers and my ink consumption per print is about the same. The cost of Epson ink is more than double the cost of DTG DuPont based ink (Epson $345 per liter vs DuPont at $150 per liter). The Epson warranty is the best in the industry. I no longer need to be my own printer mechanic which saves me a lot of time. There are many other factors to consider when making a decision. Before you jump in make sure you understand how you plan to use DTG, how much quality and speed are worth and calculate your total cost of ownership.
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Old July 28th, 2015 Jul 28, 2015 2:25:40 PM -   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viper 2 or Epson SureColor F2000

Thanks bakedts, nice to hear from someone that has had experience with the two machines.

The ink price between the two machines is pretty significant. It sound like everything being the same it will cost twice as much to pint the same image on a f2000 than on a viper.

It is a nice feeling to not have to worry about your machine braking down and I guess that is the trade off when you choose the more expensive ink.

I personally have a small set up and will like to keep it that way, about 200 shirts per week. With my operation anyone of the machines would be paid off in 6 month and I would be able to lower the price of my products.

I guess if the viper2 is more reliable than the viper that would make a huge difference.

Anyone else can give me input about the Viper2?

And thanks again Bakedts
 
 
Old July 28th, 2015 Jul 28, 2015 4:46:18 PM -   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viper 2 or Epson SureColor F2000

I have an M2. (I had a HM1 before that). I have been pleased about 15 months in with the M2. I have not had a Viper2. In seeing all the info on both if it were me and I did not intend to move the machine and take it to events I would consider the M2. From my understanding it is cheaper to operate, faster and is not considerably more. The M2 is a larger machine and has to be tipped to get into a 36 inch door so once you put ink in it you don't want to be moving it. The V2 will fit through a 36 " door. My machine has been reliable, is relatively easy to replace the consumables on and has been out now for enough time that the bugs have been worked out and the techs have had lots of time to know it inside and out.
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Old July 29th, 2015 Jul 29, 2015 1:19:04 PM -   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viper 2 or Epson SureColor F2000

Thank tomkatruck, The M2 is a little more machine than I need. I appreciate your input.

Thanks
 
Old July 29th, 2015 Jul 29, 2015 2:06:48 PM -   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viper 2 or Epson SureColor F2000

I have had my Epson F2000 for about four months now. It's friggin'a awesome.

Prints like a dream. Sits for days at a time if I am too busy doing other stuff to use it without so much as a whimper.

Have not had one issue with mine so far and I still giggle every time it spits out an amazing printed black t-shirt. I also got the Speed Treater with mine. I did not want to fool with some lame sprayer for pretreatment.

Epson warranty on the F2000 is the BEST in the business.

Takes me about five minutes to do a cap head clean at the end of the day and shut it off for the night. Boot it up in the morning, let the ink cycle (a couple of minutes), do a light clean on the white channels, a nozzle check and maybe one more light clean on the white if needed and ready to print for the day.

Here is the kind of quality you can expect out of this printer. I took about 15 minutes in Photoshop with a couple of Michael Jackson images (just for testing), added some glow and stars along with some Illustrator imported lettering and saved it as a .png file. Moved it into my Digital Factory aftermarket RIP which I think is great and printed it out on a Gildan Ultra 2000 t-shirt just last week.

No need for high dollar ring spun t's if you ask me. I am not hounded with the "white dots" that a lot of t-shirts will produce with t-shirt fibers rising up and standing out.

The image size here is about 15" X 18" on a $250.00 compatible 16" X 20" platten that I bought on eBay. Works very well.



If you talk with Harry at Equipment Zone (who sold me mine) I think you'll be surprised at how affordable the Big Brand Name Epson F2000 is when thrown into a package deal with a Speed Treater. I know the Spectra guys like their "affordable" DTG and I don't blame them but I liked the security of the Epson name and warranty when I put my money down.

If you or anyone else has any question about why I like my F2000 please drop me a PM and we can talk on the phone about it. I don't know everything about this printer or the CadLink Digital Factory 3 RIP that I bought but I can happily share with you what I do know.

No I am not a salesman for Epson or EZ and NO Harry and I are not dating.......LOL! *yuk!*

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Old July 29th, 2015 Jul 29, 2015 2:26:31 PM -   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viper 2 or Epson SureColor F2000

You might want to take a look at this thread also: https://www.t-shirtforums.com/dtg-brand/t563698.html

Last edited by gatorGRAFIX; July 29th, 2015 at 03:56 PM..
 
Old July 29th, 2015 Jul 29, 2015 3:00:45 PM -   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viper 2 or Epson SureColor F2000

WOW, Great post gatorGRAFIX and that print looks great. Your advice it's a lot of help!

I have a question for you, why do you use Digital Factory and not the rip that comes with the machine? .. just curious.
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Old July 29th, 2015 Jul 29, 2015 3:40:01 PM -   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viper 2 or Epson SureColor F2000

Well, I do use the RIP that comes with the machine a lot. Especially on light and white t's that require no white ink usage. Garment Printer is very user friendly so I do like it. I also still use it on black t's sometimes too but that is only on images that I have manipulated in Photoshop where I can take out any black ink that may want to print. Since I have bought DF though, not so much anymore on dark colored or black t's.

Here is a white Gildan Ultra 2000 t-shirt that I printed in GC the first week I had the printer:



I will say however that the GC prints that I have made on black t's have come out stunning. Here is that same design printed in GC on a black Gildan Ultra 2000 t-shirt:



On my dark color t's and especially black t's that have white ink in the design I use Digital Factory because it lays down much less ink under the black ink than Garment Creator does which saves money and white ink. DF also has a "black knockout" feature that GC does not have which saves white and black ink costs and gives your black t's a better look because the black t-shirt color is shining through the design instead of the black printed ink on the black areas (which will have some wasted white ink under it).

In the black t-shirt above I DID NOT do any manipulation in Photoshop with the design and if you look closely you can see where the black part of the design is indeed printed. GC does not offer any kind of "knock me out black" printing at all like DF does. If I ever wanted to print this design in GC on a black t-shirt again I would bring it into Photoshop first and delete out all of the black in design so the t-shirt color would replace it when printed. The shirt still looks awesome however even if it did print the black areas.

Epson inks work this way. All of the CMYK inks are formulated to stick to the t-shirt itself with no pretreatment at all which gives you great white or light colored printed t's, especially if you double strike them.

The Epson white ink is formulated to stick to the pretreated t-shirt only whereas the CMYK colors are not. For this reason GC lays down a layer of white ink under the black ink so that it will all stick to the garment. DF does this too but it is all controllable right in the RIP software window easily before you print. I dial down the white usage under the black when I am printing on colored t's (other than black t's of course) and that in turn saves me money and white ink better than GC does.

You don't NEED an aftermarket RIP at all I don't think and you can learn to use GC successfully with Photoshop too if you want but I wanted to step up and see what an aftermarket RIP had to offer.

Last edited by gatorGRAFIX; July 29th, 2015 at 03:59 PM..
 
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Old July 29th, 2015 Jul 29, 2015 5:23:45 PM -   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viper 2 or Epson SureColor F2000

gatorGRAFIX Thanks again, very, very helpful stuff.

Dude the quality on those shirts is unreal, it looks like it was printed on paper.

Thanks again!
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Old July 29th, 2015 Jul 29, 2015 5:59:10 PM -   #11 (permalink)
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Thank you sir for the compliment. I appreciate it much.

That dang F2000 knows how to print a badass t-shirt. Great artwork also really makes this printer standout.
 
Old September 1st, 2015 Sep 1, 2015 11:00:40 AM -   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viper 2 or Epson SureColor F2000

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomlongisland
Hello, Im looking to buy our first DTG Printer and were leaning towards the Viper2, but after weeks of research it starting to sound like it may be a bad investment. We recently starting to take a look at the Epson Sure color F2000.

Does anyone own or have had good or bad experiences with either of these two printers, we will greatly appreciate everyone's opinion on these printers.
Hi Tom,

First of all, there's really no relationship between the Viper2 and the original Viper outside of the manufacturer and the print quality.

There's also a difference between the Viper2 sold in the US by ColDesi (my company) and the ones sold overseas.. ink delivery system is different..ours are cartridge-based rather than bulk ink with WIMS filter. We waited for the Viper2 to be out for a good while before making it available here in order to avoid some of the new model issues that can spring up when a product is just released, so a lot of the Users on the Forum here are from the UK, et al. Make sure if you're comparing, getting feedback or taking advice on a Viper2 that you're talking to US users or EU users depending on where YOU are.

The Epson is a nice machine but the the Viper2 compares pretty favorable; uses the same 3880 heart, but the differences in ink delivery systems, the V2's ability to print on 1, 2, 4 garments in one run, the fact that it comes with a great RIP software and lower ink costs make the products different as well.

We did a comparison chart, which you are welcome to find here: Viper2 vs. Epson Surecolor DTG Printer | ColDesi

But once gain it applies more the US version...
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Old September 1st, 2015 Sep 1, 2015 1:07:54 PM -   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viper 2 or Epson SureColor F2000

Being an F2000 owner myself who did a lot of research before I purchased my machine let me point out a couple of things concerning your company's "comparison chart" which I have posted right here:



Mostly both columns have a Yes checked under their offered features but...

1.) One VERY important feature is where I scroll down to "training available". This needs to be explained a little bit better. Some DTG retail sites such as Equipment Zone that sells the Epson F2000 will fly in an Epson trained specialty tech at absolutely no cost to you (the customer) to set up your machine for you and spend the day showing you how to use it. This fact is not even suggested in this comparison.

Trust me, online support doesn't even come close when you have a new DTG and you don't know what to do with it.

2.) The Epson F2000 comes with the Garment Creator RIP which seems to have gotten a bad rap in here because some Aussie down under doesn't seem to like it. Not sure why he has so much trouble with it really. I use it all the time and I get some fantastic eye popping results with it.

Well, I put garment Creator on par with any other RIP that is out there if you learn how to use it properly to fit your needs. Also for the beginner DTG printer who might not be so tech savvy or mechanically inclined the included Garment Creator software is the most user friendly RIP out there period. For the beginner or "art challenged" this can be very important.

3.) In your comparison it is also not mentioned that the Epson F2000 has an LCD display that tells you EVERYTHING that it needs when it comes to maintenance or printing or cleaning or just about anything.

4.) Viper2 shows that it comes with a 2 year warranty (which I doubt is a full warranty "front to back" like the Epson F2000 has for one year) which is just fine and dandy but nowhere in the posted comparison above does it mention that (for a nominal fee) the Epson F2000 warranty can be extended for a full two more years beyond it's original "front to back" one year coverage.

I'm not sure how the Viper2 warranty folks handle things but with the Epson F2000 when it is under factory warranty Epson will fly one of their highly trained DTG techs to your place to fix your warrantied machine with NO cost cost to you usually by the next working day depending on where you are. I DO NOT see any other DTG seller doing this (I could be wrong but I doubt it).

By far (seriously) the best DTG warranty in the business. Period.

5.) I am not sure just what a standard door way is and they both seemed to have failed in this department but at my shop our doors are normal sized doorways and my F2000 all boxed up dollied right through my place, no problem.

6.) The MSRP listed in this comparison for the F2000 might be on par when you visit the Epson website that showed the price when the Epson F2000 was first introduced but everyone who has done even a smidgen of DTG research knows that the F2000 can be had sometimes for as little as $13,999 depending on current Epson factory sales or the deal that you might can strike. Very reasonable for such a "Cadillac"machine.

7.) Don't forget to notice the Printing Area asterisk which gives the Epson F2000 an optional print platten that is 16" X 20". Try printing an adult small t-shirt or maybe a youth small or medium on the Viper2's 16" X 24" stock platten. Let me know how that works out for you. The F2000 can handle youth small sizes up to adult 3XL and beyond with it's stock 14" X 16" platter with ease.

~It seems that about the only area that I see the Viper2 might claim as winning is the Multi Shirt Printing column.

Why buy a DTG that is "based" on an Epson printer that may have some Epson parts in it when you can buy the real deal that is 100% Epson that uses 100% Epson parts and 100% Epson inks and has 100% Epson backing I ask?

With just these few points mentioned alone seems like an F2000 no brainer to me.

Just a couple of points I wanted to make to present the facts and get the record straight. When I see comparisons made like this I like to have all of the info presented before me.

If I am wrong about anything that I have posted above (and I seriously doubt that I am) please comment but I just want the facts, not some blothiating opinions.
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Last edited by gatorGRAFIX; September 1st, 2015 at 01:28 PM..
 
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Old September 1st, 2015 Sep 1, 2015 4:32:13 PM -   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viper 2 or Epson SureColor F2000

MarStephenson761 Thanks for all the info on the Viper2.

And gatorGRAFIX, very good point on getting the actual Epson instead of a machine that uses only parts of an Epson.

I am leaning towards an Epson but to be honest the lower ink cost and multi shirt printing ability of the viper2 are very appealing.

I guess it would be good to buy the two machines and put them to work for afew years and see which one comes out ahead.
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Old September 2nd, 2015 Sep 2, 2015 8:16:17 AM -   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viper 2 or Epson SureColor F2000

BTW - I'm not trying to slam the Viper2 art all. Just trying to set the record straight when it comes to the F2000 which I am VERY happy with. That's all.
 






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