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-   -   Mission accomplished "license to thrill" (https://www.t-shirtforums.com/diy-dtg/t120740.html)

essen48183 July 30th, 2010 09:48 PM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Jeff, Love your dual belt design. I am going to try and implement it in my 2200 build so I can move my pf sensor to the bottom. I can't do roll mode, bought the wrong rip. Too bad I don't have a cover open sensor either- that's a neat use for it.

Anyway, I'm having trouble with the math on this as well. PF encoder is encoding the rotation, it has no idea the diameter of the shaft. The printer driver knows the diameter of the shaft and it calls for a certain number of revolutions to produce an expected movement. I understand that a smooth belt no matter how thick will work, just as it doesn't matter how thick the platen is. But it doesn't make sense that placing a pulley with a diameter of say 5/8" over a 5/16" shaft will move the belt the same speed.

1 revolution will make the belt riding on the shaft move a linear distance of pi x dia. the flat belt going round the 5/16 will travel slower than the one going round the same setup withtoothed belt on a pulley that is 5/8. The pf encoder is a feedback loop for angular movement. So there must be some other adjustment. Are you correcting for PF in the epson adjustment utility? Or does ekrip have a PF adjustment that you are calibrating your movement with? Multirip does not, so I'd be curious to know if the epson pf calibration is enough to solve it.

If it just worked automagically, and you don't know why... I'd be real curious to know if you can get a print to automagically work from your multirip trial... If you can, I'll buy the toothed pulley and belt. If not, I'll wrap a flat one directly around the shaft.

Thanks,
Essen

102557 July 30th, 2010 10:21 PM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
First of all what rip do you have? i know multi rip will print in roll mode!

I,M only going up in size approx 1/8th in diameter with the type pulley i selected no noticeable difference in image..

but this is the real key the adjustment is in the ek rip...i have been bragging on this for quite some time but no one seems to understand how important this feature is..i think you get it! it lets you print in blazing speed at 720 res with the stock epson firmware which is real jerky in this res on the 1900.. i have been trying to explain how important this is maybe i didnt do a good job:) there has been some talk that multi rip is adding this feature, however im not sure you might want to ask mark in regards to this.. i cant remember who posted it....
https://www.t-shirtforums.com/attachm...-ek-print-.jpg

EK RIP has a table movement adjustment which allows you to adjust the gap and feed in every resolution setting (speed 720 x 2) (fine 1400 x 720) and super fine 1400 x2) ...ie if an image gets stretched out or shrinks and adjusts for the banding... it lets you adjust it by + #"s or -#'s from o or neutral position as much as you want as far as i can see. the screen shot above are my number adjustments..as you can see mine are not very far off the standard settings or default settings and these are the speed or 720 res numbers, i think my super fine dual 1400 is around a 2- it depends on the precision of your drive setup tolerences aswell..

this is a MUST HAVE..FOR DIYDTG BUILDERS without a doubt regarding the 1800-1900 printers..its just an awesome rip in my opinion..

i know prolly not everyone is taking me seriously on the table feed adjustment subject.. i have posted this vid before and here it is again..this is mark on the mod 1 being interviewed at a show listen to this conversation regarding him explaining resolutions etc he clearly states what i have been saying all along regarding this jerky motion at low res at approx 1:50 second point of the vid and this guy is a professional printer builder who has been doing this for along time..he incorporated his own type of firmware soft sync i beleive he calls it to over come this issue... YouTube - T-Biz Network Interview Mark Monbourquette at SGIA '09


so the ek lets you print a super fast white underbase at 720 and then a color over at 1400 or dual pass 720 for the detailed crisp prints..alot of options to play with!!! I'm a big fan of well engineered stuff and this 1900 version of the rip is one of em imho.. they even added the nozzle check-head align in roll mode for me at no charge, i dont think any rip-printer has this feature without it being designed for it commercially? not sure.. i like roll mode because there is no pre print dance of it searching the edge- which cuts out mis registration and with the timing belt now its nothing short of bullet proof imho..

so this is a very big feature that over comes a multitude of sins for diydtg designers (Im guessing it was included or designed for there commercial version rip for this very reason aswell for the anajet sprint an epson 1900 based printer;)) to eleminate the need for additional firmware? including adjustment for the larger pulley for a lack of a better term.....

I'm really impressed with what this diydtg is cappable of doing all the way around with this combination and the timing belts..and i dont get impressed easy..im always trying to make stuff better and i definetly call it how it is good,bad or ugly as i think you have seen through out my trials and tribulations with this project..cant wait till i get some time to bolt it all together and get it off the workshop testing table..lol:rolleyes:

hope it helps;)

102557 July 30th, 2010 11:52 PM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
P.S

how i go about adjusting the table feed movement is as follows- the rip gives you the demention of the graphic size that it is supposed to be..say 8x10.. i print it out, measure the image with a caliper and adjust the settings till i get it to the exact numbers the rip says..then i adjust for any banding if needed usually the only banding is in 720 res and it is minimal;)

DTFuqua July 31st, 2010 05:25 AM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by german13 (Post 734222)
P.S

how i go about adjusting the table feed movement is as follows- the rip gives you the demention of the graphic size that it is supposed to be..say 8x10.. i print it out, measure the image with a caliper and adjust the settings till i get it to the exact numbers the rip says..then i adjust for any banding if needed usually the only banding is in 720 res and it is minimal;)

If you remember, I had dthese same doubts myself. I'm glad you finaly elaborated on how the difference is made to keep the print looking like it is supposed to when the drive system has been altered.:D The rip will compensate for the difference in drive speed or distance per revolution? ;)

102557 July 31st, 2010 07:21 AM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DTFuqua (Post 734287)
If you remember, I had dthese same doubts myself. I'm glad you finaly elaborated on how the difference is made to keep the print looking like it is supposed to when the drive system has been altered.:D The rip will compensate for the difference in drive speed or distance per revolution? ;)

I have explained this before on several post:confused: one of them in the rip and driver options thread... however as i said before above the pulley im using its tolerances or bore size is 5/16ths then there is a very thin less than an 1/8th inch gear pitch which will make no difference in the print;) it all depends on your pulley of choice-if you go larger you can compensate with the rip but it is not needed.. maybe i wasnt clear on explaining it? sorry for the confusion... anyway its an incredible feature in itself just for fine tuning the parameters of any image;) if you go a considerable up size in pulley you will have to play with this.. here is another option aswell machining the drive rod down to a size smaller and having your pulley size at 5/16ths or cutting the drive rod down to within an inch of the encoder wheel add a reducer and smaller rod to accomodate your choice of pulley.. options for everything:)

102557 July 31st, 2010 08:15 AM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by essen48183 (Post 734184)
Jeff, Love your dual belt design. I am going to try and implement it in my 2200 build so I can move my pf sensor to the bottom. I can't do roll mode, bought the wrong rip. Too bad I don't have a cover open sensor either- that's a neat use for it.


Thanks,
Essen

I never thought about the possibilities of adding the pe switch to the base with the two belt design the bottom of the platen would act as the platen;)..

you would still need the asf modification to get the paper tray gone or a small version to eleminate errors with the printer.. and you would still get preprint dance.. i would love to see how this works allthough awesome i bet, let me know if you try it!!!
it sounds awesome for the folks that run in sheet mode..and basically you could use the printer to its exact design intent this way with minimal modifications and print up to 144" long..very cool idea;)

Great thinking essen.....

DTFuqua July 31st, 2010 10:29 AM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
I looked at the EKPrint site and they have a rip for the R1400 I noticed. If one were to decide on just doing white shirts, do you know enough about them to know weather or not their rip would do the equivilant for that printer? I thought about asking their "contact" email address but not sure how to make myself understood. Thanks.
Terry

102557 July 31st, 2010 10:31 AM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Here is the proof that its all original epson firmware.. (i have been questioned to the vadility of my claim) this should put that to rest:)..

Here is my asf (paper tray conversion) and electronics modifications for my design..the wood spacer was a prototype and has since been replaced with plastic but any material will work for this.. THE DESIGN IS VERY TIGHT with little margin for error with its size..this is due to running a 26inch belt system,incorporating the asf mod and avoiding flat cable extensions in one small package... spent hours and hours designing it out... i know some folks will have problems building this that dont have mechanical-carpentry skills due to the tight tolerances and straight cuts are a must.

i took the electronics carriage and cut it in half and folded it (makes for a small foot print)..so the mainboard and power supply is back to back using original holder (but you could make your own aswell. you can take a look at my printer now and see axactly how its configured... this set up is under the left side foot of the printer and the flat cables off the printer go through a cut out and plug in right behind the printer (original location to stock printer....(the usb and power come out the side) now take a look at my new undermount pan its the same just added the new belt system:D

as we go along i will show how to modify the board with the switches and wiring extentions

102557 July 31st, 2010 10:38 AM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DTFuqua (Post 734388)
I looked at the EKPrint site and they have a rip for the R1400 I noticed. If one were to decide on just doing white shirts, do you know enough about them to know weather or not their rip would do the equivilant for that printer? I thought about asking their "contact" email address but not sure how to make myself understood. Thanks.
Terry

yes, the rip will work the same for sure... you could ask chris (the creator of it) there customer service is a++++++ and will work with any dtg designer that knows there stuff..if you know what i mean, they will not answer anything outside of there products capability-in other words they will not give you tech advice or trade secrets its a top notch operation... just mention my printer they know it well;)

i have had a ton of communication with them on there product!

however the 1400 does not have a roll mode so would not work with this design unless you incorporate the pe switch (then you get the preprint dance in sheet mode)....

essen has just mentioned incorporating the pe switch in my new belt design..this would work but i havent tested it... additionally i prefer roll mode for the instant print start and no pe switch..;)

DTFuqua July 31st, 2010 03:09 PM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Reading your next to last post got me to thinking about paper modes and the things in my 1400 that would be more of a detriment to making a DTG, like the CD printing, and decided that having the paper roll mode would make things so much simpler to be well worth the extra costs even if I still plan on doing just white shirts. I know you keep telling us all these things and do appreciate it. I'm just hard headed untill I get the ideas sorted out in my mind and understand the whats, hows, and whys.. Anyway, thanks again and I am still following this thread instead of the 1400. Don't want my old foggy brain to get too confused.:D

essen48183 July 31st, 2010 03:30 PM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Turns out I didn't need the dual belt system to do it. I took a jigsaw and cut a 2" notch out of the back of my tray so that the uncut remainder is 19" (about a 2x5" notch) Then I moved the pe sensor underneath and put it on a hinged block with a spring. This way it stands straight up and operates, but when "rewinding" my tray, it folds down and is not activated. Seems to work pretty good. I didn't try a dark shirt, but it shouldn't have changed anything. It was the last little annoying quirk this printer had. You had to move the platten laterally before rewinding for a second pass to not damage the pe sensor. That is now a thing of the past.

102557 July 31st, 2010 04:16 PM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by essen48183 (Post 734521)
Turns out I didn't need the dual belt system to do it. I took a jigsaw and cut a 2" notch out of the back of my tray so that the uncut remainder is 19" (about a 2x5" notch) Then I moved the pe sensor underneath and put it on a hinged block with a spring. This way it stands straight up and operates, but when "rewinding" my tray, it folds down and is not activated. Seems to work pretty good. I didn't try a dark shirt, but it shouldn't have changed anything. It was the last little annoying quirk this printer had. You had to move the platten laterally before rewinding for a second pass to not damage the pe sensor. That is now a thing of the past.

glad you got it!!!:)

102557 July 31st, 2010 08:33 PM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
I also got to check out the pre treat machine we are working on this afternoon (i am having my brother head this portion of the project up) we work together on alot of projects- i supplied the base and component design for the app

.. so we had some very good results from the system with testing.. we are using industrial spray nozzles and testing the different patterns and distances. we used an on demand pump for the application aswell with and without a timer with great results from both ways..

we also built a manifold system for the pump (multiple spray bays from one pump) in the event you need to do multiple shirts at once cuts time but requires extra space for additional bays... im guessing he should have this down to a science within a month give or take.. with this pump you can even operate it (the spray start) from a key ring remote control while doing other tasks..:D

this has been our back room project shortly after i got the printer going.. we will most likely produce these aswell in fact it will probably be our main concentration for a separate venture with my brother running the operation aspects of it...

its completely enclosed to keep treatment confined with a clear top viewing area during treatment application...;) its a cool little rig for sure..this is actually fits right into what i normally do for work so i have a ton of experience with liquid delivery systems from plastic containment-pumping systems.. i have built several hydroponic systems for large indoor-outdoor vegtable-fruit farmers... this involves a timed water feed delivery system with variations of nozzles pumps etc;)

i have recieved alot of insight on the application process and its still flowing in..thank you guys for that info.. so the biggest thing i hear from experienced users is most are doing this with a hand held sprayer..and there is a certain waste factor treating spots of the shirt not needed.. i also hear that getting the spray uniform and even everytime is a task... so those are the major things we are concentrating on by setting up multiple nozzles for different areas of the shirt to reduce waste spray and getting a uniform application every time.. this system will also be 100% plastic..liquid+enviornmental conditions usually dont mix well over time with metal treatment enclosures.:p I would LOVE to make this for a commercial printer manufacturer if anyone has an interest or wants a prototype designed let me know and of course with complete confidential non dis closure agreement....or possibly a distributor interest..

to be continued....

102557 August 4th, 2010 08:08 PM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
I have been playing around with different configurations with the new belt design, and discovered completly on accident a new possibility for the drive system... very simple if it works as we think it will..

its humorus from our standpoint as we have put so much thought and effort into most that we have done with the diydtg project including some pretty elaborate design programs.. and mock-trial runs..

we will do some testing with this new idea the begining of next week and i will let you guys know if this will work.. basically we ran into a little snag in choosing a part for the drive we were working on so i decided to sleep on it..may sound crazy but i went to bed thinking of this and dreamed a pretty cool alternative..woke up and wrote it down..lol:) i have alot of these little writings ;)some are bad some are good but i like this one.. this also depends if we can get another modification to the rip...i have an email in to those regards aswell. i think they can do this..

anyway it would allow all the tangibles to be put into one side of the unit, easy access-clean design, dead stop registration without extending the original base foot print (30 inches) with a 26 inch belt.....however it would include no belts, no tentioners etc platen could be fixed or removable...anyway im going to cnc some parts tommoro after work to accomodate the idea so we can test our theory:p

if it works it will be the simplest functioning diydtg design for sure (as far as transport system)...its already simple regarding the other aspects... we are profectionists we want to produce one that will just go and go without hardware adjustments belt tentioning etc

P.S we are going to be getting rid of the original base the white one..its a prototype and its rough in look with some test errors and miles on it and is not 100% to our specs with alot of ink on it..lol but it works well for the full conveyor belt design for someone that wants a good start. if theres someone local to chicago that isnt mechanical enough to build there own they are welcome to have it free if they pick it up..i will not ship it..

midwaste August 4th, 2010 11:00 PM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
From one engineer to another....Top notch work. I haven't read through all the details yet, but I love the belt design and working with the firmware.

Enjoy it while you can, because as soon as you get it fine-tuned, you'll be doing nothing but printing shirts, heh.

With regard to your pre-treatment system, the only suggestion I have is to use staggered directional (flat) high-pressure/low volume nozzles for most effective application of solution.

Great job. One of the best threads I have read on TSF, might consider submitting it to Makezine.


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