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-   -   Mission accomplished "license to thrill" (https://www.t-shirtforums.com/diy-dtg/t120740.html)

spiderx1 December 4th, 2010 05:43 AM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
I believe that rip print is for printers such as versacamm. If u got it to print u still would have profile issues. RIP program is key to success.

102557 December 4th, 2010 08:57 AM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
I cant agree more on the importance of the rip!!! I dont see the rip as a diy option.. when i first started the diydtg project i heard so many on the commercial side of the forums exclaim you couldnt get enough white down in 720 or color for that matter.. or that most dont print in 720!!

i had a hard time understanding this concept, but come to find out most epson based dtg,s use one brand of rip so the characteristics are the same for all these machines with few exceptions!! i was fortunate enough to find the ek rip.. My general approach to everything is SHOW ME why and how does it work! so i will try or test everything to understand what people are telling me.. I found that only one commercial machine uses the ek (ANAJET) and even some of the anajet users were not aware of the 720 white underbase printing capabilities (and this is only one of many benefits this product has over the competition) i think alot of this stems from the distributors lack of knowledge of the rip and not properly showing what it is capable of... For example i did a video of the ek printing in the 720 res and posted it on a thread on the commercial side, it was attacked left and right all the way from my poor art rendition which i exclaimed when i posted it that i was not the best at this art yet and it had errors in it (it was a great dane file that layers had to be removed etc because its intendedd use is for screen printers) the subject that we were discussing was that no epson based rip could lay down a good enough white underbase at the 720 res, which the ek rip clearly does with minimum effort... even the hardened pros could not except this! Why? because they have never tried anything outside the status quo or they would have known this benefit!!!

so my point here is dont get locked into brand names/ or what everyone else is doing or is capable of test things for yourself and do your home work!! all that being said i will try any brand that has upgrades or new extra included features.. i dont close the door on new ways/equipment/software that become available to achieve the objective!! after all these things evolve!! I can also understand long term pros questioning the ability of what i showed them after all im new to this so what do i know:) I'll be the first to tell you I,m no graphics pro im just starting to learn all this..but i can also tell you my fabrication background is in the mechanical end of process equipment and finding better solutions to make things work has been my job/ this includes testing new software for different applications.. so i consider myself open to all avenues for these applications...

I plan on doing other videos of some images i have already printed using the 720 res (printing to dark)and pushing the rip to its limit to find out the best print time per image for production values, im certain i can bring this time down considerably!! theres another big advantage to printing in 720 for epson based machines besides reduced print times (ink cost per print) the ink cost go down considerably aswell!!

also i wanted to add this post in here that justin walker started on the commercial side regarding rip software... this guy has owned numerous brands of printers and has been in this trade for some time!! I love reading his post and value his insight, and most of all he is not afraid to question the status quo.. you will learn alot from this guy i certainly have...:) heres the post.. https://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-...tml#post805897

Sign Dog December 4th, 2010 05:52 PM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by german13 (Post 808486)
I cant agree more on the importance of the rip!!! I dont see the rip as a diy option.. when i first started the diydtg project i heard so many on the commercial side of the forums exclaim you couldnt get enough white down in 720 or color for that matter.. or that most dont print in 720!!

i had a hard time understanding this concept, but come to find out most epson based dtg,s use one brand of rip so the characteristics are the same for all these machines with few exceptions!! i was fortunate enough to find the ek rip.. My general approach to everything is SHOW ME why and how does it work! so i will try or test everything to understand what people are telling me.. I found that only one commercial machine uses the ek (ANAJET) and even some of the anajet users were not aware of the 720 white underbase printing capabilities (and this is only one of many benefits this product has over the competition) i think alot of this stems from the distributors lack of knowledge of the rip and not properly showing what it is capable of... For example i did a video of the ek printing in the 720 res and posted it on a thread on the commercial side, it was attacked left and right all the way from my poor art rendition which i exclaimed when i posted it that i was not the best at this art yet and it had errors in it (it was a great dane file that layers had to be removed etc because its intendedd use is for screen printers) the subject that we were discussing was that no epson based rip could lay down a good enough white underbase at the 720 res, which the ek rip clearly does with minimum effort... even the hardened pros could not except this! Why? because they have never tried anything outside the status quo or they would have known this benefit!!!

so my point here is dont get locked into brand names/ or what everyone else is doing or is capable of test things for yourself and do your home work!! all that being said i will try any brand that has upgrades or new extra included features.. i dont close the door on new ways/equipment/software that become available to achieve the objective!! after all these things evolve!! I can also understand long term pros questioning the ability of what i showed them after all im new to this so what do i know:) I'll be the first to tell you I,m no graphics pro im just starting to learn all this..but i can also tell you my fabrication background is in the mechanical end of process equipment and finding better solutions to make things work has been my job/ this includes testing new software for different applications.. so i consider myself open to all avenues for these applications...

I plan on doing other videos of some images i have already printed using the 720 res (printing to dark)and pushing the rip to its limit to find out the best print time per image for production values, im certain i can bring this time down considerably!! theres another big advantage to printing in 720 for epson based machines besides reduced print times (ink cost per print) the ink cost go down considerably aswell!!

also i wanted to add this post in here that justin walker started on the commercial side regarding rip software... this guy has owned numerous brands of printers and has been in this trade for some time!! I love reading his post and value his insight, and most of all he is not afraid to question the status quo.. you will learn alot from this guy i certainly have...:) heres the post.. https://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-...tml#post805897

Hi
Just wondering if you have made any progress with white ink not clogging in the print head, I have received my R1900 but am not sure I won't to start the build, 90% of what I planed on printing would be black shirts, if the white is ruining the heads it just don't seem worth doing until maybe some new ink becomes available?
Thanks

102557 December 4th, 2010 06:54 PM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sign Dog (Post 808708)
Hi
Just wondering if you have made any progress with white ink not clogging in the print head, I have received my R1900 but am not sure I won't to start the build, 90% of what I planed on printing would be black shirts, if the white is ruining the heads it just don't seem worth doing until maybe some new ink becomes available?
Thanks

you have several options of overcoming the dupont white issues, and i believe the most recognized is the bagged white ink system... I have not tried this approach myself but many on the commercial side compliment the system!!!

I personally dont beleive in this approach because my three clogged printheads always involved the nozzle plates themselves.. this was documented by actually taking the printheads apart and defining the clog issues.. in the case of all three heads it was the nozzle plate that was clogged on the white channels only!!! no where else was there any indication of clogs residue.. I used carts and flushed after every white ink use so you can take maint out of the equation!! my personal belief is the separation of the white ink is to great in a short amount of time leaving larger particals in the system.. also i think going to a large filter damper in the white channels could reduce this!! but the truth of the matter is the ink needs to be reformulated to work with out all these add ons and special care!!!

i spent four hours today in a local shop whom uses a different brand white ink and swears by its performance of not using any bag system or special hardware...and by my observation today i tend to agree with his claims.. i will have to spent a bit more time analizing this before i could say for sure but today gave me hope for a current production waterbase white ink.. additionally i have been aware of this product and his use of it for about two months and if he has replaced a print head i sure have not seen it!!! i frequent this shop frequently unannounced..lol one of my printers is being tested there, i chose this due to there higher volume of printing so that any issues could be resolved at a faster rate based on its usage time, and it doesnt cost me test ink..lol !! he is not a giant production shop or anything but does use the dtg on a daily basis!!

I started researching the msds sheets on this and it is vastly different formula from the dupont white and cmyk for that matter!!! some of the most interesting aspects of it are reduced particle size of the titanium dioxide, treated color pigment, and a filler pigment added to the titanium dioxide which reduces the amount of the titanium dioxide needed whilst achieving the same refraction rate!!!

again i have not tested this myself but will be doing so shortly!! I will post my experience with its use!!:)

Sign Dog December 4th, 2010 07:22 PM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by german13 (Post 808718)
you have several options of overcoming the dupont white issues, and i believe the most recognized is the bagged white ink system... I have not tried this approach myself but many on the commercial side compliment the system!!!

I personally dont beleive in this approach because my three clogged printheads always involved the nozzle plates themselves.. this was documented by actually taking the printheads apart and defining the clog issues.. in the case of all three heads it was the nozzle plate that was clogged on the white channels only!!! no where else was there any indication of clogs residue.. I used carts and flushed after every white ink use so you can take maint out of the equation!! my personal belief is the separation of the white ink is to great in a short amount of time leaving larger particals in the system.. also i think going to a large filter damper in the white channels could reduce this!! but the truth of the matter is the ink needs to be reformulated to work with out all these add ons and special care!!!

i spent four hours today in a local shop whom uses a different brand white ink and swears by its performance of not using any bag system or special hardware...and by my observation today i tend to agree with his claims.. i will have to spent a bit more time analizing this before i could say for sure but today gave me hope for a current production waterbase white ink.. additionally i have been aware of this product and his use of it for about two months and if he has replaced a print head i sure have not seen it!!! i frequent this shop frequently unannounced..lol one of my printers is being tested there, i chose this due to there higher volume of printing so that any issues could be resolved at a faster rate based on its usage time, and it doesnt cost me test ink..lol !! he is not a giant production shop or anything but does use the dtg on a daily basis!!

I started researching the msds sheets on this and it is vastly different formula from the dupont white and cmyk for that matter!!! some of the most interesting aspects of it are reduced particle size of the titanium dioxide, treated color pigment, and a filler pigment added to the titanium dioxide which reduces the amount of the titanium dioxide needed whilst achieving the same refraction rate!!!

again i have not tested this myself but will be doing so shortly!! I will post my experience with its use!!:)


Thanks I can't wait to hear your results, do all the retail DTG printers have this issue with white or just the home made printers?

Thanks again.

102557 December 4th, 2010 07:45 PM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sign Dog (Post 808725)
Thanks I can't wait to hear your results, do all the retail DTG printers have this issue with white or just the home made printers?

Thanks again.

the general concensus is the same accross the board from all printers diy or commercial.. keep in mind they are using epson printers aswell and the only difference is there auto load platen firmware:) these printers will represent results the same an epson printer is an epson printer;)

the only difference would be printers using a bagged system or inline filters/dampers which is easily administered on diy!!!

102557 December 4th, 2010 08:53 PM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
also i wanted to let you guys know if you want to use a sealed bag system on the cheap using bulk bottles there is a very easy way to do this..... apply this technique with the large filtered dampers would eliminate most of the issues!!!:)

Use disposable baby bottle liners inside the bulk bottles or a bag liner of any sort, this allows the supply bag to colapse as its used, being a sealed system with no air introduced!!!!!!!;) the diyer can adapt it very easy!!!

102557 December 4th, 2010 10:18 PM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
add a degassing filter and bam...done.. there are many of these inline instant degassing filters being manufactured currently.. print speeds are reported in there tech briefs to increase by 15% using these!!
Ink Debubbling, Ink Deaeration

moffett8 December 5th, 2010 07:13 AM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Do you know what the cost of the degassing filter is?

Philip

Quote:

Originally Posted by german13 (Post 808769)
add a degassing filter and bam...done.. there are many of these inline instant degassing filters being manufactured currently.. print speeds are reported in there tech briefs to increase by 15% using these!!
Ink Debubbling, Ink Deaeration


moffett8 December 5th, 2010 07:16 AM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Just a thought....do you think that air bubbles in the line are helping the heads to clog? Wouldn't air facilitate the ink drying and thus cause clogs in the print head?

Philip

Quote:

Originally Posted by german13 (Post 808769)
add a degassing filter and bam...done.. there are many of these inline instant degassing filters being manufactured currently.. print speeds are reported in there tech briefs to increase by 15% using these!!
Ink Debubbling, Ink Deaeration


Sign Dog December 5th, 2010 07:18 AM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by german13 (Post 808769)
add a degassing filter and bam...done.. there are many of these inline instant degassing filters being manufactured currently.. print speeds are reported in there tech briefs to increase by 15% using these!!
Ink Debubbling, Ink Deaeration


What brand of ink do you recommend using for the CMYK and White?

Thanks

102557 December 5th, 2010 07:59 AM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by moffett8 (Post 808869)
Do you know what the cost of the degassing filter is?

Philip

Im not sure what the ink degass filters cost but i have used them in water treastment and they are cheap! I wasnt aware they made one for ink until recently!! in the u.s they have a north carolina office distributor!! in the water treatment process there made to be disposable im sure this is the case for ink aswell!!

102557 December 5th, 2010 08:01 AM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by moffett8 (Post 808872)
Just a thought....do you think that air bubbles in the line are helping the heads to clog? Wouldn't air facilitate the ink drying and thus cause clogs in the print head?

Philip

I think this is exactly the case with the white ink because only the nozzle plate is clogging in my case.. tells me the print head is misfiring, if you read the tech brief i posted it exclaims the same thing:)

102557 December 5th, 2010 08:06 AM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sign Dog (Post 808874)
What brand of ink do you recommend using for the CMYK and White?

Thanks

I have no recommendation yet.. i just know the dupont white is clogging easy, not just by my experience but others have sent me emails saying the same thing!!

I will be testing the t-print brand ink shortly, this is the brand that a friend locally has been using and swears by it, not using any hardware to control it!! so i will test this first before i add a sealed system with a degassing filter!! one thing he says is the evaporation rate is higher so a sealed system might be the correct route anyway!! the t-print has been compared to the resolute ink as far as its properties.. i have not used anything other than dupont currently!! when i watched the t-print white being printed it looks alot smoother than the dupont for some reason to me, it corresponds with the msds as far as the white (color treated pigments, smaller particle size)... however this could be due to my pretreat aswell, but i dont think so!!

If it works as stated its the best kept secret in dtg..lol:) which i wouldnt doubt one bit lots of people are supplying dupont (almost all) and making money gets in the way of good products sometimes:p think about if your are selling degassed ink in bags and spent alot of money setting this process up you are not going to be the first one that says theres a product that works without out this, and not to mention the profits!!! I spoke to the supplier whom has a deep history in dtg, and some say produced the first dtg printer, regarding the ink he says its made by standard coating corporation which is tied in with union ink somehow whom makes alot of screenprinting ink products!!! i will be speaking with him in dept on this monday afternoon!!

there have been alot of users of resolute ink that claim they dont have the clogging issues with the white that dupont has!!! so my guess is the t-print similar to that product!!! In other words there is something working better than dupont white already!! CMOS has said this himself that he hasnt had much issue with the resolute.. I consider that one of the credible sources he has been involved here for some time!!

essen48183 December 5th, 2010 10:22 AM

Re: Mission accomplished "license to thrill"
 
1 Attachment(s)
I just read through all of t-print's literature.... I think they are on to something. Good find, Jeff. I am getting low on ink, so I think I'm going to give this stuff a trial soon as well, the 350 price for a small size of the whole system looks good too. I'd really like to get my printer off of dual cmyk mode that I've been leaving it in to prevent clogging issues.

Common sense tells me that the main problem is settling. Even the small amount of ink in a refillable cartridge non-ciss system seems to be able to settle enough to ruin a head. I imagine a white sludge on the bottom of the cartridge that just won't go through the tiny holes. When I switched from my last DTG to my current one, I sucked the ink out of the CIS to reuse it, but when I got to the white... there was such a sludge in the bottom of the CIS, I chose to discard it. This was sitting in the CIS for probably 2 months and the reservoir was gently agitated a few times a week. I ruined 2 2100 heads in that same time period (but was later able to recover one of them).

Prior to a day of printing white with my 1900 DIY DTG, I now syringe the white out with a long teflon needle and refill it to agitate and remix the ink, and when I'm done, I pull the cartridges and put dual cmyk in... as I think even the sucking of a head clean on a settled cartridge would clog nozzles. Since implementing this procedure, and having the dual cmyk cartridges setup to auto head clean on a schedule, I have not ruined a head... I've gotten clogs, but not head killing clogs. (knock on wood) But it is quite a pain and becomes just one more activity that must be done. It is almost like having a pet. Did I let the dog out? Did I take care of the white ink when I was done? I personally don't like equipment that needs that much maintenance effort even when not in use... or worse yet, especially when not in use. My shop humidity is good even in winter because I am always misting water in the air cleaning and washing out screens with a pressure washer... and may have a little to do with my good results so far. I've heard humidity is very important in keeping the system working.

Anyway, I especially like this picture on T-Prints site of the two white inks side by side left undisturbed for 40 days (attached pic)... very promising. I applaud your search for something better, and hope that this is the answer. I also like the time and temp settings and detailed description they have to get lasting prints. The guessing game and trial and error and different recommendations from different suppliers evident in the dupont inks is apalling. Especially when the recommendations don't line up with my own experiences. I was going to try the conveyor dryer, and bam... right there in the description, it is an option and described how to use it successfully. Also there is confirmation in my experimentation that a dwell time of greater than the 199 second max time in my hottronix is necessary for good washability. This is another reason to use the conveyor dryer that is just sitting there when I am using the DTG.

I plan on trying this ink with smaller particles and less settling and heat pressing the pretreat and running the shirts through the dryer. I just tried my dryer and it is a crazy slow motor speed to dial down the belt speed to keep a garment in there that long... so I'll probably have to change the pulley sizes a touch on that to protect my motor. But success in that realm would also end my heat press bottleneck with the long press settings and allow me to set the timer for pretreat on my press instead of remembering to open the press after 30 seconds for pretreat when the timer is set for 199, and again after 30 seconds when the alarm goes off and I want it to cure for another 40 seconds.


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