bluewater1

Hello,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

So, after seeing that the cost to get an allover sample done would be about $600 bucks at most of the printers that can do the work (4 colors roughly), I decided that maybe it would be a good idea to look into setting something up at home where I could do samples or very small runs and see if things sell - or if I get orders - before taking it to a larger print house.

The problems with this could be if all of a sudden I got a very large order and all the shops are booked up. But, I'll deal with that then. I still think it's an alright risk as I am not prepared to spend $7k on 10 designs before I test the market, etc.

I was looking at your Anatol Manual Carousel Press E Series to do the job because I think they have a 4 color, 1 station model and also they have a very good micro registration, from what I understand. And I think the price is around $1600. Although I am still getting information on this.

Someone mentioned to me I could probably do all my drying with a flash dryer for about $300-$400 on ebay. My question with this is if I have an allover design over the sleeves (a little wider than usual) and some of the front of the shirt - then, I assume I would just do the drying a bit at a time on one area, then the next. Someone else maybe has some better ideas?

In terms of the pallets - over-sized, etc. Well, Action Engineering has those huge custom pallets, but they also come with a huge price. ($700). So, basically I saw a thread on here that mentioned something about making your own pallet, and I am down with that. Another guy mentioned to me on the phone maybe to use a door and just get some clamps and a big screen and put the shirt on the door. Well, that could be good, but a little bit too much of a construction project for me (I have 0 patience) and also registration with multiple colors could be a problem.

However, with the Anatol 4 color - well the 4 color may be inconsequential if I am in need of huge screen. From what I understand, I would need 35 x 56 to get a printing area of 28 x 42. Thats huge. So, how in the heck would I even hold that up with the clamps. Well, maybe I could - anyone know? If I can, I doubt perhaps I can hold up four next to each other. But, then again - maybe I can? Or maybe I can get 2 instead of 4 or 3?

So, ok - lets say I can't. Well, then would it be worth it to get a 1 color, 1 station Anatol with micro registration or should I just get a 1C / 1S cheapy off ebay and just make my samples using multiple colors in different places or overlapping in ways that if they are a little bit off it won't ruin the image? Obviously, I'd rather have the ability to do true multi-color. Trying to figure out how to do that effectively. I suppose with a sample, I've heard you don't need micro registration because you can do it - it just takes longer. But, then I've read some threads that say they are going insane without it. So, I am not sure. Plus, screen size and space and money are an issue.

Then, there is the option of say turning the shirts perhaps? So, for example, go thru with the screens for one part of the shirts and then move the shirts and just use adhesive spray (I think?) and lay it down flat and do a sleeve with a different screen. Is this practical/do-able? I suppose also I can fashion a custom pallet for this - or could I just lay it down on a pallet in the right location? And, if so, would micro-registration be necessary with this type of thinking/technique? Because with multiple screens aimed at different locations I could use smaller screens and just move the shirt around somehow on the pallets. Somehow I would have to mark my spots I suppose to do it in a uniform manner - although my designs perhaps could allow for a bit of error. What are your thoughts on this?

I guess there is a fair amount of info in terms of making film / screens / exposing things "on the cheap" on youtube. But, if I am trying to make some huge screens - I wonder if that's doable? I would say perhaps I could print out multiple pieces of film - either multiple images, or parts of one big image - and then piece them together on a large screen in order to start the exposure process. Any thoughts on this and what equipment would be most cost-effective? (how about the sun?)

Also, there is the question of wraparound designs and how to do those. I would about this as well in terms of this setup.

Well, there may be some things I am missing, but I hope this thread will be helpful to people in the future because I think many people may be trying to do things like this. So, I tried to make it fairly comprehensive so even a newb could do it (like me).

Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

 

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splathead

There is no registration needed on a 1 station, 1 color press. Registration only comes into play when you are printing multiple colors and need them to line up.

Have you considered plastisol transfers? They will allow an all over look and can get as large as you need, depending upon the design. This is especially true if your design allows multiple transfers to be pressed on the same garment. This would be the most economical way for samples & small runs.

 

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TshirtGuru

Not to burst your bubble, but there is a reason why an "allover" sample print would be so expensive. If anyone that screen printed could do all over printing, then it wouldn't be that expensive (Belt printers have all over capabilities, and you pay a premium for a reason, because they are EXPENSIVE machines). It would be extremely hard for you to print all over, especially if you have no prior experience in screen printing.

Now, if you are wanting to print just over the sleeves and mid section, etc, you can with a regular rotary press. One thing to look into is how to print over seams without globs of ink being left behind.

Also another thing to add, if you are looking at a press where the heads are perhaps, 12 inches apart from the next head, you will be limited with the size screen you will be able to use.


And why are belt printers harder to find? Printers see all over prints as a passing trend rather then an industry standard, and no one wants to pay for a machine that may be useless in years to come.

 

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bluewater1

Thanks for the reply!

I'm on the case with the seams. Ordered the DVD from silk screen supplies with tips on how to do that.

>There is no registration needed on a 1 station, 1 color press. >Registration only comes into play when you are printing multiple colors >and need them to line up.

Yes, the idea with a 1/1 for me would be to remove each screen and print the samples color by color, screen by screen.

>Have you considered plastisol transfers? They will allow an all over >look and can get as large as you need, depending upon the design. >This is especially true if your design allows multiple transfers to be >pressed on the same garment. This would be the most economical >way for samples & small runs.

Trying to get a water-based thing going. Looking at permaset aqua inks.

 

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spreadingink

First of all I admire your enthusiam and your thinking outside of the box. That said, by the time you figure out a way to do this, you will find that you have a pretty hefty investment I think.

Screens and films. All over screens cost me almost 200 bucks a screen to buy the emulsion to cover them isn't cheap either. You need a very large scoop coater and a way to get film output. Before we got our EPSON 9800 we were paying over 12/sq foot to have a guy with an image setter to tile films (as you suggested) for our films we found that in the areas where the films overlap you will have exposure problems vs. the non-tiled areas. Using the sun for exposure can work, but you are likely to spend several weeks dialing in the time - if you can figure the rest of it out. What are going to use to block the sun and other lights as you carry that non-exposed screen out into the daylight? How are going to stop the exposure process on that large of a screen instantly when standing with it out in the sun? Where are you going to wash that screen out - do you have a sink this large somewhere? I guess you could hook the old garden hose, but we typically wash out our exposed screens with a pressure washer. About the screen itself: It's not a small manual frame these - things are heavy and bulky and we usually use two people emulse them. If you get lighter frame on them then it will bow and you won't have enough screen tension for it to print well. Things you will need to work out and consider if you pursue this endeavor.

If you choose to outsource your film output you can expect to pay around $100 per film for film of that size - if you choose to do it in house you need a rip to get enough ink lay down to have good dense films so that your light source be it the sun or some other method doesn't 'burn through' your image and cause the screen to expose improperly, and a large format printer (think at least $2500 or so used).

If you are dedicated to going down this road I wouldn't spend ANY money on a press before you get this part worked out and I think you will find just getting an all over sized screen 'print ready' to be an expensive proposition even without having a vacuum frame large enough ( vital we have found ) for the screens.

While I understand every one wants what the large companies do I have to agree with Henry that you really don't understand how hard doing this is with the proper equipment let alone trying to do it with equipment that was not made to do this work.

Belt printers and large jumbo's specifically made to do this work cost a fortune and that is a large part of what you are paying for as a consumer to do small runs. In addtion, even with these machine production rates are greatly reduced from standard screen printing numbers and for a screen printer production rates and over head have everything to do with what must be charged.

I could comment on any number of the other things in your post and will if you want me to, but I really think that the first thing you must consider and which will cost you the least amount to think about is how to get screens properly done before you even start to worry about or consider how you print this stuff manually on a press that was not made to do this. I would suggest buying a regular sized screen get some regular sized film output and have it tile and see if you can even dial in a way to expose that properly as an inexpensive first step. Keep in mind that even if you are successful at this step, that a larger screen brings problems you won't see with the small screen.

One comment about manually printing all over - they make a machine that has a row boat like arrangement that allows enough even pressure to be put on squeegee for a good print - but trying to manually push or pull a squegee and get a good even stroke across that large an area is not something you are likely to be able to do consistently unless you are using one of these 'one arm bandits' (sorry I don't know the real name for these manual presses I have seen that will do one color all over manually).

Henry is right - if this is something every shop or screen printer (or even a few ingenious ones) could do many more people would be doing it with standard equipment.

Hope some of this helps.

Dave

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bluewater1

Thanks for the reply Dave.

I think the thing about the screens is very accurate.

So, my idea is to use a 1 color / 1 station and then just have smaller screens that are part of my design in various places of the shirt. So, I may have to adjust the designs, and also be careful to place things properly on the shirts (and allow for some changes on the shirt), but bottom line is I do not necessarily NEED to do the entire shirt all at once. Perhaps I can do it in parts, but cover different parts of the shirts.

Then, I can use smaller screens and film.

At the end of the day, I would like to outsource everything. But, I need things to sell.

So perhaps I should ask how to SIMULATE all-over printing using a manual press. And also I am wondering which type of manual to get, how many colors (or can I just switch in screens one by one if time is not as much of an issue), etc.

Thanks very much for the great reply!

 

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spreadingink

You may be able to do this that way. Keep in mind that you will have to move the shirt and then register the screen to what you already printed and then do it over and over again. This is going to be tougher than you think though. Do you have any actual screen print experience? If so, then you will probably know a bit about how hard that is going to be to do.... If not, get ready for some major frustration - the problem is that you can't do this without spending money and I am afraid by the time you get the end, you will find that you may have spent just as much as outsourcing it to get it done. I also don't think you will be able to any production at all - maybe you can do one shirt, but that isnt' really enough to have to try to sell to see if they will do well. I know it's a conundrum, but frankly any business is a risk and going to cost you money to do it right. It might be well to just concentrate on really cool designs that can be printed in non-standard print locations without doing all overs and use the profits from that to finance future prints that do all over work?

Even on the manual side of the house it is really easy to end up with a 10K investment in a hurry and I don't think you want to do that and still not be able to achieve what you wanting to do as this equipment gets top dollar to buy the first time, but you can never resell (auto or manual) equipment to totally recoup your investment - it's a lot like buying a car in that respect.

Dave

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bluewater1

I think basically in my last post I was actually saying what you said:

"It might be well to just concentrate on really cool designs that can be printed in non-standard print locations without doing all overs and use the profits from that to finance future prints that do all over work?"

I said:

"...but bottom line is I do not necessarily NEED to do the entire shirt all at once. Perhaps I can do it in parts, but cover different parts of the shirts."

"So perhaps I should ask how to SIMULATE [meaning do parts of the design in different parts of the shirt] all-over printing using a manual press. And also I am wondering which type of manual to get, how many colors (or can I just switch in screens one by one if time is not as much of an issue), etc."

I think to register the screens with a one color, sure it'll be a pain the ***. But, you just basically allow in the designs that if things are a bit off it won't kill ya. So, the placements are not completely dependent on each other being in the EXACT same location.

Question is whether I really need to get a one color or just get a four color manual press. If I use halftones and CMYK... I think I will do ok (focusing on one end of the spectrum with similar tones for a portion of one part of the design for one of the screens and other screens not dependent on placement).

Also, any one out there like me who doesn't own a print shop that does allover prints and wants to do this for themselves?

Don't need 144-200 shirts to do a sample run per design. And thats what shops require.

Don't see why I need pro equipment if I do it this way.

 

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spreadingink

Quote: Originally Posted by bluewater1 "...but bottom line is I do not necessarily NEED to do the entire shirt all at once. Perhaps I can do it in parts, but cover different parts of the shirts." "So perhaps I should ask how to SIMULATE [meaning do parts of the design in different parts of the shirt] all-over printing using a manual press. And also I am wondering which type of manual to get, how many colors (or can I just switch in screens one by one if time is not as much of an issue), etc.".

Sorry I guess I didn't understand that is what you were thinking by that - you can certainly do non-standard print locations with a manual press without too much problem.

Quote: Originally Posted by bluewater1 I think to register the screens with a one color, sure it'll be a pain the ***. But, you just basically allow in the designs that if things are a bit off it won't kill ya. So, the placements are not completely dependent on each other being in the EXACT same location.

True, just keep in mind that you are wanting to waterbase inks and the opacity may not allow you to over print without it affecting things from one color to another and if you try to do discharge they can't overlay each other without affecting the colors they will have to be in register.

Quote: Originally Posted by bluewater1 Question is whether I really need to get a one color or just get a four color manual press. If I use halftones and CMYK... I think I will do ok (focusing on one end of the spectrum with similar tones for a portion of one part of the design for one of the screens and other screens not dependent on placement).

You can do CYMK on a four color press, but keep in mind that this not an easy print process to master and it will take you some time and a great deal of effort to do this.

Quote: Originally Posted by bluewater1 Don't see why I need pro equipment if I do it this way.

Maybe not, but you do get what you pay for and with non-pro equipment - even on the manual side, it will greatly affect your learning curve and your ability to do what you want to do - get a professional looking print which you can use to sell your line into the market place.

Best of luck to you - I do (really) admire your enthusiam!

Dave

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bluewater1

Thanks! Difference between pro equipment and some manual presses seems a bit blurred at times unless you need/want micro registration. For obvious CMYK prints, it seems you would if you use the full spectrum. Still exploring whether you can use halftones on just one part of the spectrum to get a similar effect on one screen (black and greys for example).

Obvious difference between manual 1 color and manual 4 color is you can just spin the machine to get each color down and registration is in tact I would assume. Also, you can move faster shirt to shirt. However, wondering if I need that just for samples - especially if I plan to allow for non micro-registration.

In regards to the ink, I believe Permaset is a unique waterbased ink, although said problems could still exist. Have watched youtube videos on it - pretty impressed. Also, youtube videos exist with tips on waterbased printing from silk screen printing / ryonet (spelling). However, this doesn't make me an expert. Just good to see.

 

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spreadingink

Quote: Originally Posted by bluewater1 Thanks! Difference between pro equipment and some manual presses seems a bit blurred at times unless you need/want micro registration. For obvious CMYK prints, it seems you would if you use the full spectrum. Still exploring whether you can use halftones on just one part of the spectrum to get a similar effect on one screen (black and greys for example).

If you are wanting to do true CYMK you will need a four color press and micro registration, I wouldn't want to attempt it without the micro's as it's pretty tough to register without them - even on spot colors.

If you just want to do greyscale you can do that without micros and with one screen, keep in mind that burning hafltones without a vacuum exposure unit is problematic and you will need a rip and an output device for your films, again a significant investment.

Quote: Originally Posted by bluewater1 Obvious difference between manual 1 color and manual 4 color is you can just spin the machine to get each color down and registration is in tact I would assume. Also, you can move faster shirt to shirt. However, wondering if I need that just for samples - especially if I plan to allow for non micro-registration.

Even planning for not having micros with your artwork you may find that getting one acceptable sample is more work than you might think.

Quote: Originally Posted by bluewater1 In regards to the ink, I believe Permaset is a unique waterbased ink, although said problems could still exist. Have watched youtube videos on it - pretty impressed. Also, youtube videos exist with tips on waterbased printing from silk screen printing / ryonet (spelling). However, this doesn't make me an expert. Just good to see.

I have seen stuff on them and they have even sent us a sample or two, but we use Matsui for our waterbased prints. I know for a fact that you cannot over print discharge inks or print them not in register and it not affect your colors/print (we've tested it) - it won't matter what discharge you use. If you only plan on printing on light garments then you can get away with more with standard waterbased inks.

Gotta full day tomorrow - got it hit - again good luck to you.

Dave

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Rodney

Quote: Also, any one out there like me who doesn't own a print shop that does allover prints and wants to do this for themselves? Don't need 144-200 shirts to do a sample run per design. And thats what shops require.

Sometimes people don't realize what is possible until someone comes along who is dedicated to *trying* it and documents their progress

As you've read from the posts already made, it will be a process with lots of challenges.

For many, the challenges won't be worth trying it themselves. They will either deal with the minimum orders, or decide against that type of print until they have the capitol to do it right.

For others, the challenges will be welcome, and they'll think outside the box to try to make it work on their own. I'm sure you'll find a few of those "do it yourselfers" as you continue through this project

For me personally, I have a design that I'd like to get all over printed, and I'm willing to keep searching until I find the right combination of pricing and quality. I have no interest in doing it myself, and I just don't have the time to put into that type of do it yourself project. I would personally rather have it done professionally so that the finished product looks as good as possible to all potential buyers.

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staned

blue water, i wanted to do all over printing, but as dave said it's real expensive. my solution was to use 20"x28" platens with neckline cut outs. this is the entire front of a large t-shirt minus the sleeves. anything going on the sleeves must be done as a separate print. most of the art these days just has splatters or scrolling on the sleeves anyway. i don't have to print over seams this way and most artist find this easy to work around. combined with water base and discharge i can get the all over look you see in stores. stan

 

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