There seems to be some momentum gathering in sales of organic T-shirts and apparel generally. It has occurred to me that screenprinting using nasty conventional dyes (plastisol, I think?) rather defeats the purpose of using organic blanks!
There are herbal and other dyes around that are people and environment friendly and some companies are using them to dye organic T-shirts blanks - apparently effectively - so I'm wondering if any of the screenprinters out there know of an eco/people-friendly screenprinting dye that could be used, or is being used? It must be possible, surely.
Or perhaps that rubbery stretch quality is only currently possible with plastisol dyes?
Anyway, interested to know the story from you screenprinting experts.
well plasticols are inks not dyes and I'm not sure whats out there that is truly eco friendly. Waterbased inks are friendly yet the chemical to clean are not.
Emulsion and reclaim chemicals are still harsh so even waterbased printers are not totally eco friendly. Its a step in the right direction IMO
Yeah, Fluid, I suspected I had my terminology mixed up a little. I was referring to screenprinting inks, not dyes.
So, water-based inks are as good as it gets at the moment, it seems. What is your view on whether they are as good in finish and as durable as plastisol screenprinting inks?
Yeah, Fluid, I suspected I had my terminology mixed up a little. I was referring to screenprinting inks, not dyes.
So, water-based inks are as good as it gets at the moment, it seems. What is your view on whether they are as good in finish and as durable as plastisol screenprinting inks?
From what I have researched over the past few months (and still learning), water-based inks are a step in the right direction of being more eco-friendly vs plastisol inks **edit** but moreso as it relates to the printing on the apparel and not the printing and disposal processes used with it. (Sorry about the mix up, as my understanding is that water-based inks have to be flushed/washed down a drain whereas plastisol does not.)
All screenprinters I've spoken to over the past 3-4 months have said that once the ink is on the apparel, there should be no negative impacts on health. This is even for inks with PVC, lead/metal and formaldehyde in it. I can't vouch for the level of truth in this as I'm not a chemist.
I have been hearing more of PVC-free plastisol inks with a soft(er) hand than expected. As well, there are formaldehyde & lead free water-based inks available too. I hope to see samples of the soft hand plastisol inks at the Printwear Show in 2 weeks, even though I'm planning to use only non-formaldehyde water-based inks.
Here are some screenprinters you should reach out to, as well as ink manufacturers, regarding your questions:
Yeah, Fluid, I suspected I had my terminology mixed up a little. I was referring to screenprinting inks, not dyes.
So, water-based inks are as good as it gets at the moment, it seems. What is your view on whether they are as good in finish and as durable as plastisol screenprinting inks?
I forgot to respond to your question about the "finish." From the samples I've seen of water-based ink prints, the finish is different than that of standard plastisol ink prints. Water-based inks soak into the apparel/fabric completely whereas plastisol sits on top.
As for what's good regarding the finish, it's all in what you're looking for. Some people prefer plastisol that sits on top of the tee as they want to feel it. Others don't want to feel it at all and would be driven to buy/use waterbased prints or soft hand plastisol.
Soft hand plastisol, which now that I think of it, I believe I felt this past week on a friend's Old Navy shirt, is a hybrid feel of barely sitting on top of the fabric and soaking into the fabric. You can feel the ink just slightly.
AB
Last edited by AdriaticBlue; May 25th, 2007 at 01:14 PM.
I think the finish product is pretty close to plasticols yet the durability is with Plasticols if cured properly.
To be honest I don't think this is true. There's a reason waterbased is used on anything that will be high traffic (e.g. soft furnishings). Unlike plastisol it doesn't require special care for the owner once printed.
my understanding is that water-based inks have to be flushed/washed down a drain whereas plastisol does not
Neither of them have to be, and ideally neither of them would be. Both can be disposed of by a waste management company (although I think waste plastisol is often cured into a solid mass and thrown out in the normal rubbish?).
As far as eco-friendly screenprinting... to a certain extent it's not possible, as the process uses a fair bit of water and chemicals. Obviously we're talking as friendly as practicable, but I figure it doesn't hurt to mention. Admittedly you can re-use water extensively (e.g. amazingly filthy water will still clean a squeegee) so with appropriate water recycling facilities a shop could probably be good enough.
TS Designs have their Rehance technology, but I'm not sure what (if any) the difference is between that and waterbased inks.
I haven't done any extensive research, but in my opinion the best option (balancing quality and impact) for the moment is waterbased screenprinting, but it seems likely to me that DTG is going to be more environmentally friendly in the long term (no water and no screens (meaning no photographic emulsion or screen reclaimer)), it's just a matter of the technology catching up on quality.
From what I can tell (I'm no chemist either, so it's hard to know) the screenprinting industry seems to have been good about OH&S and environmental impact, so over the years it has always improved it's chemicals and inks wherever possible. I've read many claims that plastisol is quite safe to work with, and if properly disposed of not unduly burdensome. That said, I'm in no position to critically assess those claims (and I've also heard the sign industry swear up and down their advertising isn't an eyesore, so I take everything with a grain of salt...).
There seems to be some momentum gathering in sales of organic T-shirts and apparel generally. It has occurred to me that screen printing using nasty conventional dyes (plastisol, I think?) rather defeats the purpose of using organic blanks!
There are herbal and other dyes around that are people and environment friendly and some companies are using them to dye organic T-shirts blanks - apparently effectively - so I'm wondering if any of the screenprinters out there know of an eco/people-friendly screenprinting dye that could be used, or is being used? It must be possible, surely.
Or perhaps that rubbery stretch quality is only currently possible with plastisol dyes?
This is a controversial subject because we don't usually discuss science and facts and impact on society. I am eager to hear about trends in new materials and methods. That curiosity is what's made me who I am.
Sales
Shirt sales have very little to do with the actual process of printing.
"There seems to be some momentum gathering in ..." is about sales and yes, sales is way more important to a business, rather than a hobby or research and development or printing.
"There seems to be some momentum gathering in" popular music, fashion, every move some celebrities make, game and reality based TV shows. People are making fortunes pandering to what is popular and that's good. I'm glad I live in the USA.
What's going to sell is a very important focus for your business. Without sales you have no business.
If you like, (or don't like) but can sell the rubbery, armor feel popular with athletic uniforms, you design with heavy deposit plastisols and cure it for a long time.
I prowled some stores in a mall in North Carolina last week and by my study, the world is crazy for foil skulls.
If you like organic food, bio fuel, organic clothing AND A SOFT HAND, you can do that with advanced screen printing skills like - high mesh count, high tension screens and soft hand plastisol.
Plastisol, or water-based, oil based, oil phase, water phase inks. Any ink. Your real enemy is that you think plastisol is bad and water based is good. Or that any ink is bad. Everybody knows that drinking and driving is bad. Everybody for the last 30 years knows that smoking is bad. I don't know of any textile chemicals from commercial companies that are harm to any innocent person like asbestos or DDT.
If you're scared of the ink we use, use it safely. Handled safely, almost anything can be safe. When I got back from Texas after the Printwear show I paid a man to inject me with drugs and then he put a pliers in my mouth and pulled out one of my wisdom teeth.
I have to pay for my ink I don't want ANY ink to go down the drain because it costs money. It used to be that morons that screeched their tires were using Mom's card and didn't pay for tires. Now there's a whole lifestyle based on drifting and burning up tires.
I have participated in several threads on this site about the benefits of WB or plastisol inks to the environment, (please search for water base). Cured, they have almost the same eco-impact except for the fumes released by ANY evaporative ink that will be more than 50% of the ink. Water is just the vehicle. Most poisons are water based. You have no control of what goes into the water based ink you buy, and no knowledge of what is released into the environment.
A gallon of WB ink yields less than a gallon on the shirt. In many ways that is OK, because when you make it yourself, it is very inexpensive. I love water based ink and have printed drums and drums of it. I don't like the chemicals that evaporate into the air and the fact that it dries in the screen. I have loved several women in my life, but that doesn't mean I don't want to strangle them sometimes.
Plastisol is 100% solids. It cures and fuses on the shirt without any evaporation. It is the international standard for high opacity on dark colors. It has many rules about disposal although many people wash up with ink degradents and send it down the drain. You have no control of what goes into the plastisol ink you buy, but you know that 100% of it is fused and trapped on the shirt and their is no release into the environment.
Mom and every chef alive has a distinct method of cooking. They could be good eco-citizens in the kitchen or not. If you love hamburger - If you eat meat, you know the 22% fat burger you get a t Paul Newman's restaurant in Connecticut is amazing. If you worship the cow as the Hindi's do, I've committed a mortal sin - or worse a crime. George Sanders is famous for regularly ordering pork sausages in Israel.
You as a designer or producer need to say what you want, and every chef you meet will try and please you. If you don't like what you get, you date somebody else.
If you can sell 'herbal dyes' and corner the market - great. If you are making millions and you find that 'tiny crippled Chinese slave children' die every year grinding up the herbs, you get to decide if you want to make change in your products.
Unskilled printers that under cure ink, make bad separations and pour things down the drain where they don't belong are like that insane person that you were so hot for 3 weeks ago. You recognize the traits they had and you avoid people like that no matter how excited you got.
Nasty? UV ink that is on every CD you own might not be cured completely. Any uncured monomers that enter your body stay that way for the rest of your life.
Nasty. Solvent based vinyl or epoxy inks. Ask the person printing that stuff every day.
Nasty. I did 2 days of consulting work in a tannery once. Perhaps the 2 worst days of my life. I never liked the bakery I worked in after school because I always burned my arms.
I don't accept the entire premise that organic is somehow, by definition, safe or better. There's lots of fear mongering. It reminds me of the arguments we had about bio-degradable. Even plutonium is bio degradable, it just take 500 years or so.
Let's be more specific about the benefits and I want to continue any discussions to bring facts to light. Let's discuss what you are worried about.
Most people on these forums are just afraid to make a mistake or experiment. That's what school, libraries and these forums are for.
Oh. I'm coming out with a new organic process ink and fiber made from all natural crystal structures that are found free in nature called arsenic. The stuff is amazing.
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At trade shows and seminars, I always check out the shoes of eco-friendly people with questions. Most of the time they are wearing leather, brand name athletic shoes made in ..........
__________________
How are you measuring? retired Ulano Technical Support Screen printing since 1979 - SGIA Academy Member
Last edited by RichardGreaves; May 27th, 2007 at 09:46 AM.
What exactly is your role in the screenprinting industry?
Let's take a different approach for newbies like me to get educated on the subject at hand.
Tell me what what I need to be concerned with in wanting to sell eco-friendly screenprinted apparel?
What questions should I be asking of ink manufacturers and screenprinters regarding water-based & plastisol inks, and the printing processes they're used with?
What exactly is your role in the screenprinting industry?
When Gena Conti the milliner, wanted to insult her ex-son in law, she said, "He has an ego even bigger than Richard's".
My role? Blowhard, egoist, loud talker, know-it-all, industry pioneer in the 1980's with full color process on textiles, automatic printing, printing on sleeves before they are sewn, custom mfg garments, developed ultra heavy weigh fleece material (which was unheard of in the 80's).
Most of what I learned about sewing and dying I learned at Carolina Pacific in Statesville, NC at the corner of Old Mountain Road and I-44. I took that experience to the textile region Northwest of Philadelphia where Jeffrey Gitomer and I started Shadow Graphics where we knit, cut, sewed and printed shirts. For a few years Jeffrey, Duke Daulton and I created an inhouse school at Daulton Imprints in Hickory NC, for screen printers that accepted students from the outside. This is the only place that has specifically focused on fine line automatic printing.
I wrote a column in Screen Printing for 9 years and was Technical Editor for Printwear magazine for 5 years. Member of the Academy of Screen Printing Technology. That's quite a few years putting my opinions in print for peer review. I now work for Ulano as Technical Product Manager.
Which is all well and good, but you have to decide if what I wrote makes sense, or helps you understand.
To promote your business you could focus on how all the materials were disposed of in an eco-friendly manner, including can recycling, water recycling, heat exchangers, low volume toilets, conversion of those huge sodium lamps to low cost fluorescent lamps, swamp coolers, trash separation, womb to tomb documentation of your ink and stencil waste disposal, other alternative clothing materials like hats for sun protection, not leather, not fur, not animal tested and certainly not driving about in an inefficient gasoline car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdriaticBlue
Let's take a different approach for newbies like me to get educated on the subject at hand.
OK. What do you mean by different?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdriaticBlue
Tell me what what I need to be concerned with in wanting to sell eco-friendly screenprinted apparel?
Why are you concerned? You make a list and it will be simple to make any concern into a mission to find an alternative you can live with, then boast about it.
Quote:
-Desire a human and animal "healthy" ink on apparel
-Desire an ink that's environmentally-friendly
-Desire an ink that allows the fabric to breathe
-Desire a complete, soft-hand feel
-Desire an ink that will allow the customer to iron the apparel (if needed)
-Don't desire an ink that will crack
-Don't desire an ink that sits on "top" of clothing
-Don't desire an ink that has an odor/chemical smell/or that will cause any respiratory issues
A lot of what I wrote above, is on the same path as what I wrote to you in March, when you were exploring WB ink and alternative materials for shirts.
Quote:
Don't be seduced into specifying WB inks.
WB requires nastier internal chemicals than plastisol - and they all go into the air.
Plastisol soft hand does breath and can be ironed and can't crack because if it was a film on top of the shirt, it wouldn't be soft-hand.
If ANY ink has an odor after initial washing, IT IS NOT CURED.
Making money so you can stay in business is the most important vision you need. If you know the eco-friendly screen printed apparel business, or have a vision to lead in that market you know how you have to manufacture by default. If you lead with eco-friendly, you are selling a promise and a process, which is more than the 'brand' selling off athletic teams and shoe logos.
When I was working a trade show, the only time I was ever handed back a sample shirt was when I gave a Jimmy Buffett "Cheeseburger in Paradise" shirt to a vegetarian. I quickly substituted a fabulous Penguin shirt. I didn't scoff, I got her something she would like. If ink chemicals or bleached white shirts scare her, I would get her what she wanted. You have to be more specific about what scares you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdriaticBlue
What questions should I be asking of ink manufacturers and screenprinters regarding water-based & plastisol inks, and the printing processes they're used with?
You need documentable testimonials on how the invisible processes used to manufacture your line can be used to help to you sell your line. Look at how American Apparel promotes their urban/USA/LA downtown heritage, which is different from the corporate Hanes/SaraLee international conglomerate structure.
I hope I didn't miss you at the Texsource Open House last week. You missed your chance to pigeon hole the Union, International Coatings and Charlotte's own Rutland ink reps. They will all be in Charlotte again at the end of next week for the Printwear Show. Go to the ink booths and tell them what you are scared of. Alas, I won't be there because I will be in Berlin at the FESPA show.
I've arranged for Denise Breard to substitute for me at the 4 seminars I usually teach at the Printwear shows. This is the first Printwear Show I have missed since they started. Call me and I'll fix you up with a pass to the screen printing seminars. 646-294-2799. I leave for Berlin Friday night.
If I was there, I'd take you to Vince DiCecco's sales and marketing seminars Friday and Saturday. Vince is a former Wilflex, Nalco and Dow Chemical employee and would be full of insight on how to avoid a nasty chemical reaction to the manufacture of t-shirts.
I'd invite you do dinner with Vince and Helen Hart Momson who would supply moral support and years of Southern experience dealin' with the Good Old Boys in the textile trade.
If you were still in Charlotte on Saturday night, I'd take you to Sullivan's with Jeffrey Gitomer (who still has the front column in Printwear magazine and is in over 80 Business Journals around the world). You could fence your way through dinner as he would steer you an a positive direction on how to promote and sell your line.
I know you're afraid of something, we just have to drill down and find out what that is. It still feels to me like you are still fishing for a problem. I don't assume there is - except that people blindly believe water based ink is somehow safer to the environment.
__________________
How are you measuring? retired Ulano Technical Support Screen printing since 1979 - SGIA Academy Member
Last edited by RichardGreaves; May 26th, 2007 at 11:31 PM.
Wow - what a wealth of information and what a guy you are Richard! I want to thank you for sharing details on how you started and what you have done & do in this industry. You've made some great points that I must do to make any business work.
I will call you, as my business partner and I plan to be at Printwear in Charlotte on Thursday, June 7th. Yes, I missed the Texsource open house, wasn't aware of it. What time of the day or evening between this Sun-Wed is best to call? I sent you my number in a PM. I'm a late night person, usually up until 2am everyday but I'm up in the mornings too. Let's just say, I'm up more than I'm sleep.
I am new to the idea of selling apparel, and new to the idea of selling screenprinted apparel - that should be obvious. It's very easy for me to have concerns that may not need to be concerns, as there are so many unknowns and assumptions when I'm not making the inks or doing the printing. I'm glad you said what you did, as it got me thinking more about just what my concerns are.
Over the last 6 months, my goals have changed in the markets I would like serving in this industry. After reading your reply last night, I called my business partner, asking just how in the world I got on the bandwagon for eco-friendly products/processes when eco-friendly buyers are not one of my target markets??? We discussed and remembered when. Targeting "green" buyers is truly moving away from the sole reason I considered this business.
However...In considering this business, my overall concern is - a customer, their child or their pet experiencing a harmful effect as a direct result of wearing my screenprinted apparel with chemical-based dyes and screenprinting inks. I have yet to read of such a story or case but I've read some about harmful effects of PVCs & phthalates.
This is a concern I've created because common sense is saying, if I'm selling a product that has chemicals in it/on it, from the t-shirt dyes to the ink printed on it, then it could be harmful to someone.
Tell me if my concern does not need to be there so I can let it go, though I need to know why I should let it go. The other question I have with that is, if there shouldn't be a concern, why are ink manufacturers and screenprinters making products and processes more "green?" I am thinking this is moreso to help the environment than to prevent the tshirt customer from experiencing an immediate harmful effect from putting on that shirt. Please correct me here if I'm mistaken.
I feel it would be the right thing to do for me to partner with screenprinters, fabric source companies and ink manufacturers who do not make use of any sweatshops to bring forth their products, and whose processes/products are safe for humans and the environment. That's all.
Again, I'm not targeting those who seek to buy only "green" apparel. I'm not wanting to sell a promise or process about inks and printing. But hey, if I earn the business of an environmentalist, then I've done something I wasn't planning to do.
Any eco-friendly screenprinting alternative? 
