Discuss the different types of equipment needed for screen printing. Topics include manual screen printing presses, automatic presses, dryers, folding machines, starter kits and high end machines.
I'm making the plunge into an automatic. I want to be able to print up to 8 colors on dark shirts. I've boiled it down to either a M&R 9/10 Sportsman or a Workhorse 8/10 Javelin Pro. I've heard good things about both, but of course there are the negatives spouted by the competitors. M&R says the Javelin's on-press flashers don't work. One of their salesman has said that M&R tried the same idea, but couldn't get it to work. Also M&R is skeptical about Javelin's V squeegees, and failure to print good half-tones. Of course the Freedom people say the M&R's Revolver system is a joke if you have to flash more than once and that cleaning the squeegees is a real head ache compared to their V squeegees. How about it? Do any of you have these problems? Which machine would you buy?
I've used a great deal of M&R's and I have never had a problem with them not doing what I want them to do. I've had 6 color Gauntlets up to 14 color Formula's and they all printed well.The knock about cleaning squeegees seems irrelevant because whatever squeegee you buy, V shape or single in line, you're gonna have to clean it. If you get to pick your flash units I would go with the quartz rather than the old radiant panels. Instant on and off is good but take care of those bulbs. If you break them its expensive. My crew has only broken 2 in 5 years where I currently work. If you want an opinion of the Javelin, and I can't give you one, call their service department, ask for a tech, and ask him what he goes out and fixes most often. Then ask if there is a press close by that you can visit. Its a better way to make an informed decision. I am good friends with one of the original M&R techs and even though every press has its problems, M&R makes a good machine that they stand behind. Just look at their boothes at the trade shows. Hope it helps a little. Good luck in the automatic world. Its a big step ahead, but there are other gremlins waiting for you when you get there.
Out of those two, I would go with the m&r. I just went through this process and it was a blast. Do a lot of research, then when you think you've done enough, do more. I had my mind made up on a certain press and decided to look at a few others just for kicks. I was extremely surprised at what I found and then I really emersed myself into the process and learned more about autos than probably 90% of the people who sell them. I ended up finding a press that I believe is better in almost every category than any other press on the market and it was not the one I had originally intended to buy. Be open minded and listen to everything, but don't believe everything you hear, if you know what I mean. Take the facts and use them to form your opinion and don't be afraid to trust your gut.
The last thing you want to do is listen to what a salesperson has to say about a competitor's press. Some of the reasons that were given as to why not to buy the press we bought were complete nonsense. They don't know the competing presses near as well as they should. You need to talk to the people who have run more than one kind of press or know a lot about the differences in press features from one manufacturer to the next. Even the operators who have only run one press, usually will not know anything about another press and give you false info as well. Just because you have run a TAS for ten years and it has been great, doesn't mean there isn't something much better out there. Most have tunnel vision and swear by a certain company when they are actually very uneducated about other's that are out there.
The v-squeegee system works fine, but if I had the choice, I would choose the chopper style. If people are saying they can't get them to print then they aren't trying very hard or they shouln't call themselves a printer.
The Flashback for the Tuf works, I would say quite well actually. I saw one running at the ISS show two weekends ago. Production rates will be pretty slow though, much too slow for me. I would rather buy a press with more printheads and more flash units than use the flashbacks all the time. Every once in a while on smaller runs would be fine, but if I had to do more than a few hundred shirts at that pace, it would be worth the extra price for more printheads. But, if your a small shop and don't intend on running the auto at full speed with 3 people, then it's a nice thing to have. With just one person doing the loading and unloading it would be fine. The v-sqeegees arent as easy to clean because of the open triangle area between blades but you can get around that, shouldn't be a deal breaker.
Revolver mode for the m&r works as advertised. I got a close look at a sportsman e and a diamondback at the ISS show. They are awesome looking, very, very solid machines, pricey and a little over-engineered for my taste, which you have to pay for. It's hard to explain, but the press I look at everyday is much cleaner (engineering wise) and less cluttered with more features. It just had a lot going on and I was overwhelmed almost. Just my humble opinion and I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I know good equipment when I see it, and it is good equipment. You can't go wrong with them.
All of the presses out there are good, but some are better than others, but they will all produce a great quality print assuming the printer knows what they are doing. With all that I have learned recently, I can say that most of these manufacturers have done a good job in engineering auto presses and they have listened to printers and tried their best to incorporate those features.
Sportsman vs Javelin, no contest, especially a sportsman E with servo drive. Like Alan said, M&R and workhorse aren't the only manufacturers out there.
I was in the same boat as you. Except it was a diamonback or a javelin. I spoke with javelin owners and they had some similar complaints about the flashback as well as registration problems. Of course this isn't to say that every Tuf product out there has problems but that is what they told me.
I ended up choosing the diamondback. The sportsman is very similar. I am very impressed with their press and service is top notch. When I had some small problems in the beginning I spoke directly to the owner and he walked me through the fix. Now that's great service! Also has M&R techs calling me to follow up and had a tech that flew in from Texas that was installing another M&R at a nearby shop came by and checked to make sure everything was running properly. There are other great presses out there, but I must say that M&R has one of the best support out there. Make sure you think about the support you will get after the purchase, it is just as important as the press itself.
I was in the same boat as you. Except it was a diamonback or a javelin. I spoke with javelin owners and they had some similar complaints about the flashback as well as registration problems. Of course this isn't to say that every Tuf product out there has problems but that is what they told me.
I ended up choosing the diamondback. The sportsman is very similar. I am very impressed with their press and service is top notch. When I had some small problems in the beginning I spoke directly to the owner and he walked me through the fix. Now that's great service! Also has M&R techs calling me to follow up and had a tech that flew in from Texas that was installing another M&R at a nearby shop came by and checked to make sure everything was running properly. There are other great presses out there, but I must say that M&R has one of the best support out there. Make sure you think about the support you will get after the purchase, it is just as important as the press itself.
We also have had a tech just show up that was in town to check on things for us. I have also had the opportunity to talk mr Rich Hoffman, President of M&R on issues I have had and again they are sure on the ball to get things right for you. Like what was said consider the customer service aspect also.
I'm making the plunge into an automatic. I want to be able to print up to 8 colors on dark shirts.
Welcome to the Auto wars!
You don't know it yet, but come Spring, you'll have a 10 color Gauntlet and be happy to pay the extra for it. M&R will make sure of that.
Want to get a really good deal on it, tell them you're talking to MHM and thinking of getting an E-Series, i bet a free flash falls in your lap.
You'll be getting a call in the next few days from both parties if you haven't already.
I got a personal call from Rich Hoffman also, it really impressed me that a multi-million $$$ ceo would call little ole me. Says a lot.
Feels good don't it.. he only wants to make sure the other guys don't get your money, Rich is a great guy, met him dozens of times and think he's a marketing genious. His mission is to own screenprinting.. he's almost there.
I talked to every manufacturer during the buying process and told all of them up front that we were looking at other presses. Some guys came to the table with their best price, and some didn't bother. Until we told them we were buying the other press. Then prices fell considerably, from two companies. 25K from one, 15K from another. That just pissed me off, they were willing to sell me a press at 25K more in the beginning and didn't want to budge on price until they thought the sale was going to someone else. I won't mention any names, don't want to get into all that, but there were 6 manu's overall in the race, and 2 of them worked their butts off.
I'm from outside U.S., I also just went through the selection process. I narrowed down my choice into 2 brands. Since I got good feedback from users of these two, I contracted their respective distributors to make an actual production run of one of my jobs. 4 colors with a High density effect on one. I'm now waiting for the delivery of my first auto. - a 12/14 TAS.
having owned a couple of javelins, a precision (old skool), and having worked with m&r and tas, i went looking for something more, ended up with mhm. if you crunch the features and really look at the actual time savings (time=everything in biz), mhm has a clear and indisputable advantage.
Boy did I have a long debate about the MHM versus our press on another board a few weeks ago. Unfortunately your comments about the mhm's advantages being clear and indisputable can be disputed quite easily.
I've seen the mhm e-type and individual print head up close and have seen it at shows and I agree the press is better than most presses on the market. It can run circles around any press that doesn't use a regi system and most that do, but that ain't all there is to printing and setting up jobs on an auto. I know setup time is where you make hay, and there are so many other things that go into setting up a job than registering screens in the press.
About the phone call, it was after they already had my money.
About the presses.... MHM is a beast, not cheap though. Alan's RPM is a monster, I've seen the pics. So many choices so little time... Hal you're gonna have a blast when you get your press. Just do your research and hands-on if possible. If you can stick your neck put a little- or a lot- further, I'd get at least a servo drive 10 color, nine ain't gonna cut it if you want to print 8 colors on darks- you're gonna want at least one more head/open station while flashing.
Sportsman vs Javelin 
