Just wondering if any Mimaki DTG 604D users out there might be able to help answer some questions i have. I have Maimaki 604D printer which i have been using a for a few months now. So far after some testing and printing and allot of trial and error i seem to be getting the hang of this machine. Anyway i am wondering if anyone can explain to me the "device profiles" in the Rasterlink rip program. I mean each profile is a setting for the type of print you want to achieve and some of these profiles have abbreviated letters at the end of their description and i would like to know what they mean ND, VD, H_B, H_D, for example:
Textile pigment CMYK ...Cotton v2(2Layer)..........v2.0 ........720 x 720 VD
Textile pigment CMYK ...Cotton v2(2Layer)..........v2.0 ........720 x 720 ND
Textile pigment CMYK ...Cotton v2(2Layer)H_B...v2.0 ........720 x 720 ND
Textile pigment CMYK ...Cotton v2(2Layer)H_D ..v2.0 ........720 x 720 ND
Textile pigment CMYK ...Cotton v2(2Layer)H_B...v2.0 ........360 x 720 ND
And lastly in job editor in the color matching section you can select settings for illustration and for image, whats the difference? i mean you have your image to print why is their settings for illustration and for image aren't they the same thing?
Any help would be much appreciated.
I've been running my GP604D for almost two years. I feel your frustration with all of the profiles. I've gone so far as to sample several different kinds of prints with ALL of the profiles, and the best that I can tell you is that for the most part, there isn't a lot of difference. I have found the following:
for a two pass print, I use the "Cotton v2-1 (2L-8pU)H_B", 360x720ND. For a single pass, I'll use the same, but 720x720ND resolution. For Discharge, I use the "Color Cotton (RD) Discharge v2," 360x540 HQ VD, with a "2" overprint. I find this gives me the densest discharge I can get with most garments. I would also LOVE to know what all the designations mean, but I haven't gotten an answer on this from my tech, Louie Springer @ Jantex, Joe Terramagra @ Mimaki in LA, or Ralph Terramagra in Georgia.
as far as image vs. illustration, this is raster and vector, although, again, I have noticed little difference with different rendering intents.
Hope this helps, maybe someone who knows will find this thread..
Hi Steve here. VD means variable dot and ND means normal dot. As far as rendering intents illustration means Vector art and Image means Bitmap.
As for H_D and H_B these are different blends of cotton. I can probable answer most of you all questions as I am a Mimaki Dealer and service tech. I have over 30 Mimaki 604s in service across the US and provide 24/7 tech support for them.
He guys,
Sorry for taking a while to get back to the thread!
Anyway thanks for all your input. Thanks Dan for explaining and sharing your experiences, and also the difference between image and illustration.
Yeah the Mimaki manual is not a big help and it is frustrating when you have a question and there's not allot of suggestions or advice that they provide you, one of the worst manuals I've read! But despite that I'm happy with what I've been producing so far and with more practice and patients I'm sure I'll finally get there.
Also thanks Steve for your help you probably don't remember me but you have helped a few times with problems with my Mimaki through emails, you always seem to have the answers, cheers mate.
As I'm from the land down under, I'm not sure that your 24/7 support would stretch to this part of the globe, but so far help through the forum and info on the net has been fantastic, unless you know a person or people in Australia (who know what there talking about )that do tech support for Mimaki??
Hi Andy, Dan & other Mimaki GP users out there: I'd like to ask your comments and experiences with the machine so far? Anything I should know about before I took the plunge? Any issues with the discharge system, etc.?
Hi Andy, Dan & other Mimaki GP users out there: I'd like to ask your comments and experiences with the machine so far? Anything I should know about before I took the plunge? Any issues with the discharge system, etc.?
There are a number of things you should consider before buying this or any other DTG printer. I will give you some thoughts on the general subject, and some thoughts on the Mimaki, specifically.
I'm sure I don't need to tell you that a DTG printer represents a significant investment in dollars. What a lot of people do not realize is that is also represents a significant investment of time. You will need to learn to use the software properly, learn the required maintenance on the machine, and be willing to invest a lot of time in actually using the machine before you can be proficient in your results. Although it resembles one, this is not a desktop printer that you can plunk down somewhere and use once a month. These machines work best when used regularly (every day or two.) If you won't be using them that frequently, you'll be doing a lot more head cleanings.
remember, too, that inkjet printing was adapted from offset printing, and shares a good deal of it's limitations. I know that most DTG printers use a CMYK inset - this provides a smaller range of colors than many of the cheap desktop printers on the market today. (Does anyone know if there is an extended gamut printer on the market??) No matter what machine you buy, a customer is going to bring you something that has a color that the machine can't reproduce. (known as "out of gamut.") In many cases, you can get away with it, but occasionally, it really won't look good. The best example I can give you is bright red. You can print a color that is 100% yellow and 100% magenta. That is as bright a red as the machine can produce, yet there are many shades of red that are brighter. This problem is compounded when using discharge to print on dark colors.
You must remember, also, that inkjet printing has evolved under the assumption that what you are going to print on is white. (white paper, in other words.) because of this, printing on colors presents a big challenge, weather or not you use discharge. If you want to try a cheap test to get some idea of what i'm talking about, buy some different colored paper and print a photograph on them using a desktop inkjet printer. The most obvious issue is that there is no true white anywhere. You may be able to achieve something that is perceived as white, but it won't actually be white. A more subtle thing to look for is the color shifts. CMYK ink is transparent, it has to be in order to mix to give you so many colors. This transparency allows the color of what is underneath the ink to come through. so, the color of your garment is going to skew your printed colors. (printing on ash has the added benefit/drawback of showing the grain of the garment through the ink.)
Another thing to consider, no matter what direction you go in, is how is the support? You are going to need tech support, no matter how tech-savvy you are, these machines have 'special needs.' My mimaki rep, Louie, is almost always immediately available on the phone. While he's a couple of hours away by car, he's walked me through many procedures, including swapping out printheads, over the phone. You'll need to have a tech readily available to contact when problems arise. (and they will...) The other component of support is supplies. Obviously, you're going to be buying ink. Mimaki sells their ink through distributors, of which there are only a few in the US. I'm near enough to the LA distributor to get the inks next day via UPS. That part is great. The part that isn't great is when you call up to order some more ink and they tell you that they're out of stock. If you can't get ink, you can't work. This has happened about once a year since I've owned the machine. Since the inks are dated, it's not so easy to just keep a stock on hand. Having an $80 ink cartridge go out of date before it's used up is a drag. You'll also need dampers from time to time, I typically buy a bunch, 10 or so, so I've got them on hand. Can't print without dampers, either.
You might also give consideration to the inksets that are used by the various makers. The ink is, after all, the finished product that you will be selling. I don't know much about the other manufacturer's inksets, I can tell you about mimaki's. I think the brother's inkset allows printing on some different items, I think I've seen examples of some hard goods, and I think I saw that it could print on leather. Mimaki's inks can't do either of these. The Mimaki's inkset is a water-based pigment. The pigments adhere to any organic fiber. Cotton, of course, but also silk, hemp, canvas, bamboo. You can print on a 50/50 shirt, but the ink only sticks to the cotton component, you end up with a washed-out looking print. (which, in the current distressed-garments-are-cool world, is not necessarily a bad thing.)
production speed is also a very large component of making a decision. You must consider how much time it takes to print your shirts. I have based my pricing not on ink cost, but on time. white DTG offers the freedom from number-of-colors based pricing, it a big drawback - the bigger the print, the longer it takes to produce it. with this in mind, I developed pricing based on how long it takes to make a print of a certain size. I then determine how many of these I can make in an hour, and divide the result into $60. (I think I should be making at least $60 an hour.) Now, the Mimaki has a big advantage here over many of the other machies, because the printbed is bigger. (16x24). I was able to obtain a double pallet setup, so that if a design fits inside a 11x16 box, I can print two shirts at a time. This is a significant improvement in the use of your time, it allows you to offer a more attractive price for this type of print, while keeping your dollars per hour figure in line. I've also built a 4-up jig, with 1x1 pallets for printed labels. Another component of production speed is how fast/easy is it to load a shirt? some of the systems I've seen are quite convoluted. remember, any time that the machines heads are not moving, you're not making money.
On to some Mimaki specifics - I really like and use the adjustable head height. I think the brother had an adjustable height, something like A, B, and C. Mimaki's is variable by 0.1mm, though a range of five inches. This allows not only unusually shaped items, (stretched canvas?) but allows you to build special pallets for special applications. One of the challenges of good DTG printing is getting those printheads as close as possible to the substrate without touching it. (I have yet to find a product that removes ink from head-strikes.) Doing this requires some creative thinking. Having the extra vertical dimension really helps out.
The build quality of the machine. the mimaki weighs about 350 lbs. it fits on a 3x6 folding table, but I'd recommend something sturdier. When that head's flying around, a folding table dances like Sammy Davis, Jr. The head height and forward/backward travel of the pallet is all worm gears. It's a very heavy, durable machine. This is the kind of machine that could be run 2-3 shifts a day if needed. I understand the brother is also similarly well-built. Many of the other machines I've seen are simply epson printers sitting on top of a jerry-rigged moving printbed.
The mimaki also has a nice feature that I haven't seen on the other machines. AT first, I was like, "eh.. snore." But I end up using it all the time. There is a laser pointer system that allows you to very accurately describe to the machine a specific space on the pallet. You can then use this space in the RIP to locate your print very accurately. So, you can use it for printing on pockets, or the back pocket of a pair of jeans. I've also discovered another use for it. I try to print whatever I can in a 2-up format. If I need to print a one-off or a test, I'd have to tear down the 2-up setup (and set it up again afterwards). not that big a deal, but still, it costs time. Now, I just use the pointer to describe one of the pallets, and i'm good to go.
The one you've been waiting for - the discharge. This is a very popular feature these days, as I have a lot of clients looking for the 'vintage' look. The discharge allows you to do a few special things, but it has some very defined limitations. printing discharge on this machine does not work the same way screenprinting with discharge does. The discharge is a separate pass, i usually overprint it (2 pass), in order to get the fullest discharge possible. On most garments, I can get 3 to 5 shades of "grey." some, though, give me 2. Be prepared to do a lot of testing. Every garment discharges differently. (if at all).
I did have to replace the discharge head, this was done under warrantly, so I didn't have to buy a $700 printhead, but I did have to put it in myself. Probably a subject for a different post. I would describe the filling/washing of the discharge head as balky, but effective. I haven't had any problems with the discharge going off before the date. (this was a concern of mine - when you screenprint with discharge, you get maybe two hours before the ink goes off.) The discharge head does seem to require slightly more regular cleanings that the color heads. This seems to be especially true if they sit for 10-20 minutes without use. In production, i've had far less problems.
Overall, I'm very happy with the machine. (It may not sound like it, but I am.) Biggest Drawbacks:
non-availability of inks
RIP software (it works, but...)
inefficient routines (why can't the pallet reset while the pumps are running?)
working on the printhead is a bear for someone with big hands
Yep, I think that laser tool is cool; sort of like the TRACE function in my embroidery machines.
As for the discharge ink, Mimaki's website recommends to replace it with the cleaning fluid if it's not going to be used for a day or more; do you follow this; and find this practice uneconomical, i.e. too much ink wastage?
Yep, I think that laser tool is cool; sort of like the TRACE function in my embroidery machines.
As for the discharge ink, Mimaki's website recommends to replace it with the cleaning fluid if it's not going to be used for a day or more; do you follow this; and find this practice uneconomical, i.e. too much ink wastage?
First off, the discharge is not an ink, it has no pigment. Mimaki calls it "discharge fluid." Discharging is achieved through the use of a chemical called Zinc Formaldehyde Sulfoxylate, which among other things, is corrosive. I think Mimiaki's literature says to wash the heads at the end of the day - I do it immediately after I finish with discharge. Not only are you risking a $700 printhead, but all the down time while you wait for the head to be delivered, the time to install the head, and the time spent aligning the head. I was down a good week, and that doesn't work for me.
As for the cost, the cleaning fluid (which I suspect is just distilled water...) is $65 a cartridge. Can't remember the cost of the discharge off the top of my head, it's either $65 or $80.
There is a proceedure in the firmware for doing this, so it's not like you have to get out rubber gloves or something. In case you're not familiar with the machine, there are slots for eight cartridges. (the non-discharge unit, the 604, has two of each color.) You have your CMYK inkset in four of the slots, and two discharge and two cleaning carts in the other. You run a simple task via the control panel, and you have to turn some valves during the process. takes 2-3 minutes. I think the material waste is pretty minimal, as I often outdate the discharge before I've used the entire cart. It's an interesting setup, really, since the two color printheads share two colors each (one head for black/cyan, and one for yellow/magenta), and the single discharge head shares two identical carts.
There is a hot rumor out there, too, that Mimaki's working on a white ink solution that would involve installing a fourth printhead (there's an empty slot in the mechanism), and replacing one of either the wash or discharge carts (or both) with white. I think this might be a magic bullet if it works, as you would not need to lay down so much white if you were discharging as well. Of course, this is completely unsubstantiated, and it could be that someone has made the whole thing up. it's an exciting idea, though, no?
Yep, I've read a post from another forum member (on another forum) (Steve?) about that white ink. But that post was a more than a year ago. Although I've seen a PDF brochure of a supposedly Mimaki GP-604S with solvent and white ink (if I recall correctly), makes one think that the white pigment ink is really not so far away. Really an exciting idea, but it makes me also think that with the white ink, a pretreatment may now be necessary?
On another note, Have you done a lot of printing using only the discharge fluid? Is this common nowadays?
Thanks again. I hope other Mimaki users join this discussion.
Yep, I've read a post from another forum member (on another forum) (Steve?) about that white ink. But that post was a more than a year ago. Although I've seen a PDF brochure of a supposedly Mimaki GP-604S with solvent and white ink (if I recall correctly), makes one think that the white pigment ink is really not so far away. Really an exciting idea, but it makes me also think that with the white ink, a pretreatment may now be necessary?
On another note, Have you done a lot of printing using only the discharge fluid? Is this common nowadays?
Thanks again. I hope other Mimaki users join this discussion.
Solvent ink is another ballgame entirely. There's been good white ink in that arena for a long time. would a pretreat be necessary? who knows? until we see this product, if we ever do, what it costs, how it works, and what the results are, we all just speculating. I still don't completely understand how you get the color ink to sit on top of the white.
Yes, I do quite a bit with just discharge. very popular these days, what will all the 'vintage' tees out there. It's not always easy, because you don't know if a garment will discharge, and to what degree, until you try. Black is obviously the most popular color, and I've had good luck with Gildan, American Apparel. tried some Alstyle black tees and they didn't discharge at all. The chemical process only works if the dyes are compatible. The only way to find out if they're compatible is to try. Navy tees are my favorite color to use, as you get a pretty thorough discharge, and the resulting color is fairly neutral. when you put a black next to a navy, the discharged portion can look yellow. royal blue usually doesn't discharge at all.
I need to learn more about the dyeing process, I have heard that black garments are often heated, and that this may lead to the dye being more tenacious than it might be otherwise. I understand this to be a crucial part of getting that really "black" dye. I'd like to do more experimenting with getting some PFD garments dyed black, but I just haven't got the time.
So with black tees, I assume that what you always do is a combination of discharge and cmyk printing, right?
No, not at all. I do a lot of 'plain' discharge. depending on the garment, you can get 3 to 5 shades, to my eye, some gradation in tone looks best. some garments won't give you that much gradation, and I find these to be less visually appealing.
perhaps it helps to think of it this way, when you're prepping the file for output, it must be sent to the printer as a greyscale file. a greyscale file can have 256 levels of grey, from pure black to pure white. The discharge is printed as black, so a white or very light color yields no "ink." a 100% black is going to yield the highest degree of discharge. it's the tones in between these two values that make the print interesting, in my mind.
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