Moo Spot Prints

I'm having a hard time getting consistent results from my test batch of imageclip paper. I have gotten a few good presses, so I know it can be done, I just can't seem to dial in the settings.

My settings:

Oki 5500N (On sale for $399 at staples this week, btw!)
Heavy paper setting
Prints are coming out ok although paper handling is very touchy. The printer can't seem to grab it well every time.

Phoenix Phire 16x16

Two paper press -

I've tried everything between 210 and 230 (20s). The only way I've gotten good polymer transfers (looks even, no missing pieces or bubbles and not *too* much toner on the green page) is right around 220, 20s with almost no pressure. Peel right away. I tried the silicon mat approach that Luis swears by and I can't tell if it made a whit of difference.

Now, these settings are in direct contradiction with what I've read so far. Everyone else is using much heavier pressure. What gives?


Garment press -

Med/Med-Heavy pressure 390-405 yields inconsistent results. If I let the paper and shirt cool a bit the color saturation looks much better and more toner comes off of the paper. Is this what you guys are doing or are you peeling immediately?

 

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rrc62

I use luis' method at 210 for 10 seconds with medium pressure, then repress with the silicon sheet for 5 seconds at the same pressure. On the garment, I press at 405-410 for 12 seconds using very heavy pressure. I peel hot right away then repress with a teflon sheet for 4 seconds. The teflon repress really brings out the colors.

I get consistent results as long as I pay attention. The whole process is very time/temperature/pressure sensitive. If you daydream and press a second too long or don't get the pressure just right, you'll get differing results.

 

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Moo Spot Prints

I did a little more testing and found that the good presses I had were all smaller pieces. Once I moved up to the full page I got consistently bad results.

I think I have to play with the paper press part of the equation. The garment press seems to be pulling off pretty well. Immediate peels lack a little vibrancy. If I count to 5 and then peel I seem to get more toner off the page.

This is a colossal pain in the ***... Amost as much so as duracotton was on my Samsung Printer. I *finally* got a decent transfer today when I tested the new oki printer.

 

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Lnfortun

Quote: Originally Posted by Moo Spot Prints I'm having a hard time getting consistent results from my test batch of imageclip paper. I have gotten a few good presses, so I know it can be done, I just can't seem to dial in the settings. My settings: Oki 5500N (On sale for $399 at staples this week, btw!) Heavy paper setting Prints are coming out ok although paper handling is very touchy. The printer can't seem to grab it well every time.

Make sure you use the multipurpose tray and feed 1 sheet at a time. Do not load your paper in the standard tray.

There is a comment about 5500N printer in this post:

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/p174088-post65.html
The ongoing Oki 5500 color issue...[/quote]

Not sure if those are related to your problem.

Quote: Originally Posted by Moo Spot Prints Phoenix Phire 16x16 Two paper press - I've tried everything between 210 and 230 (20s). The only way I've gotten good polymer transfers (looks even, no missing pieces or bubbles and not *too* much toner on the green page) is right around 220, 20s with almost no pressure. Peel right away.

Quote: Originally Posted by Moo Spot Prints not *too* much toner on the green page.

Hi Jose,

I hope you are not using the green paper to press on the shirts. I am saying this because there are at least 3 members that have mistaken the green paper as the transfer. The Imageclip instruction is ambiguous that it calls the green paper as "transferring" paper when it actual is not. It is the paper that has the polymer that is transferred to the printed area in the red paper. The red paper is what is used to press on the shirt.

Quote: Originally Posted by Moo Spot Prints Now, these settings are in direct contradiction with what I've read so far. Everyone else is using much heavier pressure. What gives?

The dwell time, pressure and temp you use is within the range that works for some due to equipment differences between users. Lately I have been using mid between light and medium pressure. Sometimes I am having polymer void on the printed area on the red paper using light pressure.

Quote: Originally Posted by Moo Spot Prints I tried the silicon mat approach that Luis swears by and I can't tell if it made a whit of difference.

The process is intended to minimize polymer speck in the unprinted area on the red paper which can sometime have adverse effect when pressed on light garment and also defeats the purpose of self weeding property of Imageclip. It also improves the polymer coverage on the printed area on the red paper. The pressure I found that works best for me is between light and medium. Too much pressure again leaves too much polymer in the unprinted area on the red paper.

The process actually works for some. I am not sure if there are more that uses the process that do not post their result but here are few testimonials:

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/p163081-post23.html
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/p167345-post24.html
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/p167519-post26.html

Quote: Originally Posted by Moo Spot Prints Garment- Med/Med-Heavy pressure 390-405 yields inconsistent results. If I let the paper and shirt cool a bit the color saturation looks much better and more toner comes off of the paper. Is this what you guys are doing or are you peeling immediately

Before I press the transfer I lower the upper platten on the shirt without locking it. I then stretch the sides of the shirts. Lock it down and press for 2 to 3 seconds to prepress the shirt. Doing that minimizes the cracking. Open the press, lay the transfer down on the shirt and press really hard pressure for 10 seconds at 400F then peel hot immediately. Waiting few seconds before peeling cools down the polymer. If the polymer cools down it will be hard to peel and also the shirt fibers will pull up. It can be misconceived as missing ink especially with light color design. To fix the fiber problem I brush down the fibers diagonally with my palm towards the corner where the peel was started from. Cover the shirt with parchment paper or teflon sheet then press for 5 more seconds. Peel hot. This helps wash fastness.

Hope this helps.

__________________
Luis MAD Scientist JR. AKA MS2
Digital Artist. My canvas is t-shirt and my paintbrush is heat press.

 

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Lnfortun

Not to change the subject Laser Transfer Paper introduced a new version of Cottontrans for laser last month. I ordered a small quantity for testing. The polymer is claimed to be not visible on light garment even on black. That is a very bold claim. BTW it is a single step paper like Duracotton. I will let you know with my test.

__________________
Luis MAD Scientist JR. AKA MS2
Digital Artist. My canvas is t-shirt and my paintbrush is heat press.

 

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Moo Spot Prints

No that's pretty much what I'm doing. I have gotten some good transfers, just not consistently.

I've been watching the polymer when I peel the paper and I think you're absolutely right about it cooling too quickly. It is very elastic and you can see it pulling itself together as you're peeling it.

I don't get what you guys are saying about the polymer specs. Maybe I'm missing something, but my understanding of how the paper works might be different. I'm approaching it like this:

1. You print on your CLP. The toner is fused to the paper internally. The red paper has some pretty specific characteristics that allow toner to be fused to it, but not as strongly as regular paper. Call it 'slightly waxy'.

2. The green paper is coated with the polymer. It's sole purpose is to put an 8 1/2 x 11 film on the red paper. It should cover the whole thing, not just where there is toner.

3. The polymer and the red paper become tacky at 210-220 degrees. Actually, I think it's just the polymer that gets tacky. It's just enough stick to get it off the green sheet and onto the red one. It is VERY temperature sensitive. Something that happens in the printer's fuser may affect this sensitivity.

4. At 380-410 degrees the polymer bonds to the red paper AND the toner. The bond to the paper is much stronger than to the toner so when you peel you leave polymer in the voids and the toner gets pulled off the paper.

5. A second press is needed to mix the toner and polymer more thoroughly.

Based on these assumptions I can see how this is so easy to screw up. You have two operations where speed, heat and pressure are critical. Like I said, I think I'm getting the hang of the peeling, it's just the red-green pressing that's giving me trouble.

I'm heading back to the shed to do some more tests... sigh.

 

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Moo Spot Prints

Ok, got a good press at 405 with heavy press. Peeled immediately but the colors aren't jumping out. I was getting much better saturation if I waited 2-3 seconds before peeling. Going to try again as soon as I can get more papers transferred. Two presses would be *very* useful right now!

The Duracotton HT press had better colors. Not sure if it has something to do with the printer settings. I was monkeying around with them all day. I ran out of paper with that one before i could do more substantial comparisons.

What's really frustrating me is that there is no way to really tell if you got a good polymer transfer off of the green paper. Sometimes it looks all bubbly and ends up working just fine. Sometimes it looks smooth and transfers like crap.

 

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Lnfortun

Quote: Originally Posted by Moo Spot Prints No that's pretty much what I'm doing. I have gotten some good transfers, just not consistently. I've been watching the polymer when I peel the paper and I think you're absolutely right about it cooling too quickly. It is very elastic and you can see it pulling itself together as you're peeling it. I don't get what you guys are saying about the polymer specs. Maybe I'm missing something, but my understanding of how the paper works might be different. I'm approaching it like this:

A: 1. You print on your CLP. The toner is fused to the paper internally. The red paper has some pretty specific characteristics that allow toner to be fused to it, but not as strongly as regular paper. Call it 'slightly waxy'.

R: Actually it has to be fused hard enough so that the less toner is lifted by the polymer in the first pressing.

A: 2. The green paper is coated with the polymer. It's sole purpose is to put an 8 1/2 x 11 film on the red paper. It should cover the whole thing, not just where there is toner.

R: Wrong the polymer should be on the printed (toner present) area only. That is what makes Imageclip self weeding. The polymer speck that everybody is talking about is exactly what it is the polymer that stays in the unprinted area(no toner). It is in small dots or patches of polymer. Sometimes it covers wide area where there is no toner. Maybe the reason you do not notice it is because the whole surface of the red paper is covered with polymer.

A: 3. The polymer and the red paper become tacky at 210-220 degrees. Actually, I think it's just the polymer that gets tacky. It's just enough stick to get it off the green sheet and onto the red one. It is VERY temperature sensitive. Something that happens in the printer's fuser may affect this sensitivity.

R: Right on both assumption. I had issue that the toner does not fuse on the red paper sometimes. I have been using card stock media setting to fix that problem.

A: 4. At 380-410 degrees the polymer bonds to the red paper AND the toner. The bond to the paper is much stronger than to the toner so when you peel you leave polymer in the voids and the toner gets pulled off the paper.

R: It does not leave the polymer in the voids of the red paper. The polymer should not be there at all as much as possible in the red paper during pressing on the garment. The polymer in the voids is the polymer that the silicon sheet process is used to minimize.

A: 5. A second press is needed to mix the toner and polymer more thoroughly.

R: This is when the polymer bonds the toner to the shirt and lifts the toner from the red paper. Some toner will stay on the red paper. That is normal.

Quote: Based on these assumptions I can see how this is so easy to screw up. You have two operations where speed, heat and pressure are critical. Like I said, I think I'm getting the hang of the peeling, it's just the red-green pressing that's giving me trouble. I'm heading back to the shed to do some more tests... sigh.

Give the silicon sheet another try with pressure between light and medium.

BTW when peeling the two papers apart never lift the whole stack (green. red and silicon sheet) off the lower paltten and keep the silicon sheet over the red paper at all times while peeling the papers until they are peeled off. As shown here: http://www.t-shirtforums.com/p160268-post7.html

I think the inconsistency that you are having is due to some of the polymer do not transfer on the toner. You can see it in areas where the toner is glossy instead of matte finish. The silicon sheet process will solve that problem. You can feel the polymer on the toner is raised and clean voids for good polymer transfer coverage.

__________________
Luis MAD Scientist JR. AKA MS2
Digital Artist. My canvas is t-shirt and my paintbrush is heat press.

 

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Moo Spot Prints

Ok, back from the shed and I've learned that my assumptions are wrong.

For starters, all the polymer except what bonds to the toner stays on the green sheet. I saw the edge marks on the red sheet and assumed that it all came off. Things make a little more sense now.

I'm still seeing lighter colors not sticking as well as they should. Seems reasonable that the toner in these regions isn't fused as strongly and is getting pulled off when both papers are peeled. Question is... is that a printer thing or is that a heat press thing?

One interesting thing to note is that I got the best transfers from my Samsung 600N. It would regularly melt Duracotton paper. I suspect the fuser runs a good 20 degrees hotter than the Oki. I thought I was using the 'heavy' option in the printer panel. Drat, wish I could remember... I don't think I want it to put down more toner, just heat it up more. Is that what setting it to 'heavy' does?

With the right printer settings the silicon sheet hack shouldn't be necessary as the toner won't pull off as easily.

Ok. Off to try the next batch...

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http://hashshirts.com

 

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Lnfortun

Quote: Originally Posted by Moo Spot Prints Ok, back from the shed and I've learned that my assumptions are wrong. For starters, all the polymer except what bonds to the toner stays on the green sheet. I saw the edge marks on the red sheet and assumed that it all came off. Things make a little more sense now. I'm still seeing lighter colors not sticking as well as they should. Seems reasonable that the toner in these regions isn't fused as strongly and is getting pulled off when both papers are peeled. Question is... is that a printer thing or is that a heat press thing? One interesting thing to note is that I got the best transfers from my Samsung 600N. It would regularly melt Duracotton paper. I suspect the fuser runs a good 20 degrees hotter than the Oki. I thought I was using the 'heavy' option in the printer panel. Drat, wish I could remember... I don't think I want it to put down more toner, just heat it up more. Is that what setting it to 'heavy' does? With the right printer settings the silicon sheet hack shouldn't be necessary as the toner won't pull off as easily. Ok. Off to try the next batch...

Actually with the Oki I was told by the tech support, it maybe true with other brands too, is the heavier the weight and the thicker the media that are selected the hotter the printer compensates the fuser temp so that the toner will fuse properly. So having said that try higher media weight or thickness. You will not find the card stock in the printer driver. You have to go in the actual printer under media menu.

You may want to try Ultra heavy or card stock or both. Imageclip's downfall is it does not work very well with very light color design. However, using the silicon sheet helps the polymer bond better on very light color toner. You can also try increasing the saturation and use slightly darker color tone for your light colors so that there will be more toner laid down on the red paper.

__________________
Luis MAD Scientist JR. AKA MS2
Digital Artist. My canvas is t-shirt and my paintbrush is heat press.

 

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rrc62

Quote: Originally Posted by Moo Spot Prints Ok, got a good press at 405 with heavy press. Peeled immediately but the colors aren't jumping out. I was getting much better saturation if I waited 2-3 seconds before peeling. Going to try again as soon as I can get more papers transferred. Two presses would be *very* useful right now!

Re-pressing with a teflon sheet brings out the colors...The same way it does with DuracottonHT. You should be repressing Duracotton for best results also. If I wait 3 seconds to peel, more color sticks to the paper than the shirt. The longer I wait the worse it is. I have to peel hot and immediately.

The key to getting the two sheets to peel clean with little to no polymer in the white area is to peel it hot. This is what the silicon sheet does. It prevents the two sheets from cooling too fast. This is also why small images are peeling fine and you are having trouble with large ones. On larger images, the sheets cool too fast after you lift the press.

You can test that theory. Take a small image and press the two papers. Peel immediately on the first. You'll notice that it peels like butter with little resistance. on the second, wait a couple seconds before peeling. You'll notice that it doesn't peel as smoothly, there is more resistance and there is more polymer in the white areas.

I can tell by how the two sheets peel if I got a good press without even looking at the paper. It should peel like butter with no resistance. If it's not, then you let it cool too much prior to peeling.

 

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rrc62

Quote: Originally Posted by Moo Spot Prints Oki 5500N (On sale for $399 at staples this week, btw!) Heavy paper setting Prints are coming out ok although paper handling is very touchy. The printer can't seem to grab it well every time.

I'm taking the C5500 back to Staples today. I'm going to find a way to take my C8800 on the road. The C5500 might be a decent office printer, but the color reproduction is terrible for photographic reproduction. The MP tray also jams every other time, which means shutting the printer off, turning it back on and waiting for it to go through it's start up cycle. Not a big deal unless you are printing on-site and have 20 people standing in line....Then every second lost due