Discuss the various aspects of heat press technology. Transfer paper, inks, plastisol transfers, vinyl cutters, printers, commercial usage, durability, suppliers, etc.
It's time to order a system and I thought I'd get some opinions. I know at this point that dyesub requires a 50/50 poly blend shirt because the ink only cross-links with polyester....And Chromablast cross-links with cotton. I know that cotton shirts are less money. I know that the Chromablast transfer media that is not printed will wash out leaving a nice soft feel. The system prices seem to be about the same for an Epson C88 setup.
I'm leaning towards Chromablast so I can use cotton shirts. Can anyone provide any other points for consideration?
I was leaning toward Chromablast or dyesub because basically only the ink transfers and cross-links with the fibers leaving a soft hand and more durable finished product, but have been reading about Everlast pigment inks and Everlast transfer paper.
What do you all think of the Everlast process? Does it leave that plastic feel? Are you basically just gluing the image to the shirt or is there any cross-linking action going on? How does it compare in durability to Chromablast?
I would go with sublimation. ChromaBlast is only to light colored t-shirts. Sublimation can go to light color t-shirts (polyester only), but also to license plates, mouse pads, mugs,... Think about the ability to package multiple items together versus just selling t-shirts. More money in packages than 1 off items.
Mark.. makes a very valid point in the fact of the other items you can produce.. The sales of other items in our shop-- mugs, plates, mousepads, tiles and just about everything under the sun is growing by leaps and bounds.. Its a great market
That's an excellent point...and raises another question. How durable is dyesub on a 50/50 blend fabric? The ink will cross-link to the poly but what about the other 50% that is cotton? I know it is the most durable method of printing a hard surface. Is it just as durable on fabric that has to go through the wash?
I went through Broders website and it turns out that a 50/50 blend is not much more, if any, than cotton. Wonder where I came up with that cost comparison.
I'm guessing that most, if not all of the items on this page can be dyesub heat pressed....That does open up a lot of possibilities.
Sublimation ink will only stay to the polyester fibers in the shirt. If 50% of the shirt is polyester, then only 50% of the ink will stay on the shirt. The process is really simply. If you heat up cotton molecules, the close in on each other. Thus, why your cotton clothes will shrink in the dryer if heated too much. If you heat polyester molecules up, they actually open up. When you heat sublimation ink up, it goes from a solid state on your sublimation paper to a gas. The gasous sublimation ink goes into the polyester molecules. When the polyester molecules cool down, the gas is locked in. Ultimately, the gas turns back into a solid state and actually dyes the polyester molecules (whether it been on a shirt, tile, mousepad, license plate,...). I am sure the technical (i.e. chemistry) side of things is a little more complicated, but this should give you the idea of the concept. Hope this helps. Best wishes.
Normal dyesub will only adhear to the poly fibers.. so if your going for a vintage type look it will work ok on 50/50 shirts.. on first wash the dyesub will wash off of the cotton fibers...
that being said.. I dye sub to 50/50 shirts all the time and use a pretreatment, on the shirts so they hold up great in the wash with out that wash out look..
I use the pretreat product called soft coat from Dye-sublimation toner, white toner, transfer paper, release paper and Geo Knight heat presses. I would contact walt there and ask him if it works with the ink and paper you plan on using..
Thanks Mark and Susan....Soft Coat looks interesting. How do you apply it? Is that added step much of a hassle? Dry time is a big factor. My operation is mobile. I do car shows, fairs, etc and print shirts while the customer waits. I'd need to be able to apply Soft Coat and press right over it.
I could always go with two printers. One with Chromablast for shirts and hats and one with Dyesub for everything else.
Last edited by rrc62; August 25th, 2007 at 05:10 PM.
Look at the cost for running two printers with bulk systems (only way to be cost effective) versus a 4800 hybrid printer. You will save money, get a better production, get larger prints and even better colors if you run a RIP software with ICC Profiles. PowerDriver IQ is good for getting started, but the colors are not the same when you compare it to a RIP in my opinion - which might be a bias one .
I had looked at the 4800, but that would more than double my initial equipment costs compared to two c88's with bulk systems. I know the quality would be better, especially on the larger prints, but I don't see where I'd be saving money. Ink looks to be roughly the same for 110ml quantity. The 4800 takes twice as much ink, but I assume that it uses half as much per cartridge which would even out to be about the same ink usage per print.
By "hybrid" I assume you mean that the 4800 will accept either dyesub or Chromablast cartridges and I would just swap cartridges depending on what I was printing.
My rough cost estimates from Coastal Business website, which seem to be the best deals out there, are as follows...
4800 Basic Dyesub starter package with Knight 14 x 16 press and Knight mug press... $4655
Full set of Chromablast carts for above printer... $880
Chromablast transfer sheets... $100 +-
Total... $5635
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Same dyesub starter package as above but with C88 and 110ml bulk ink system... $2240
C88 Chromablast starter deal with 110ml bulk ink system and some transfer paper... $685
Total...$2925
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I could buy a 4800 on eBay, but I'd still be into ink carts for around $2000. Is there something I'm missing regarding consumables cost and ink usage for the 4800? I don't mind spending the money for better equipment as long as I see a return on that added initial investment.
Sorry, I thought you were looking at buying two R1800 printers. Must have got that impression from another post. The C-88 is in a league of its own because you can pick one up for around $80.00. Of course, you get a printer that only prints a little over 8" wide. That is too small of a print size for the business I had (on-site production for Karate, Soccer,...tournaments).
When you run a hybrid, you don't switch the ink cartridges in and out when you switch between them. They stay in the printer at all times. You only run 4 cartridges of both types of ink. Thus, the reason why you need an 8-color printer to have a hybrid.
The math for the comparison breaks down into the following areas:
- Initial Cost - the cost of two R1800 printers ($550.00/each), the cost of two bulk feed systems (approx. $300.00/each when I purchased mine), the cost of 4 extra bags of ink of both sublimation ($147.50 for SubliJet IQ) and inkjet ($110.00/each for ChromaBlast) versus the cost of the 4800 printer ($2000.00) and the RIP software (varies depending on which one you go with). You can also drop the cost of the inkjet transfer ink in half by going with heat transfer ink (MultInk is approximately $50.00/cartridge).
- Cost per Print - You will have less cost per a print (according to Sawgrass, the R1800 price on bulk is $0.79/print versus $0.66/print for SubliJet IQ - this is just the cost of printing sublimation). It becomes even lower when you use a RIP that is profiled with a high release paper that does not absorb as much ink.
- Lower Waste Cost - You will have less waste on ink when the printer goes through its automatic cleanings and the 4800 needs less head cleanings to keep it going. All Epson printers run automatic cleanings based on the firmware that is only controlled by Epson. Each cleaning will spit ink into the maintenance station to help keep the printhead firing. Ask anyone that has run a bulk system on the R1800 or even 1280 and they will definitely know what it takes to keep it flowing.
I see now. So loading 4 carts of each type of ink would knock about $1000 off the total for the 4800. I had thought of the width limitation. I figure I can get around it by using two prints if need be. IE: image on one transfer and text on another. As long as I don't have a single image that exceeds 8x10.5, I'm good.
Are the 4800 stock drivers capable of differentiating between the two sets of ink cartridges or is something else required?
Thanks again...I'm reconsidering the 4800. It's more money, but it's making more sense now.
Sorry, but the Epson Stylus Pro 4800 driver does not differentiate between the different sets of 4 channels. It always wants to use all 8-channels because that is what it is programmed for. That is why you need a separate software to do this.
You are correct about being able to do two different designs on a C-88 printer. But the designs can't really touch either when doing sublimation. If you do one sublimation transfer and then try to add the second one, you can't put the first one under the heat press again. It will reactive the first transfer and will change the colors a little bit. Also, don't forget about the cost per print on the C-88 bulk system is over a $1.00/print. That is almost twice as much.
I found this which is a complete hybrid system and appears to come with the necessary driver software. Is PowerDriver IQ a suitable driver? You mentioned that in an earlier post. I think I'll call Coastal tomorrow and see what they can do on a complete hybrid system.
Chromablast or dyesub 
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