I need to know about any legal issues (or not) with using sketch or 'edited" graphics of actual products for those with experience using such graphics.
For example, I may desire to screenprint a sketch graphic of what looks like an Apple iMac flat screen computer. However, it will not have the word "iMac," "Apple" or any Apple logo on the artwork, but it will definitely give the potential buyer the impression that it's an iMac by the look of the sketch.
Basically, since you live in the United States and need a legal opinion, you must seek the advice of an attorney specializing in the field that you need a legal opinion in, i.e. as in this case you may need a patent attorney specializing in copyright.
I would suggest that you contact Chicago native Nels Jacobson, a.k.a. Jagmo, who has been creating award winning graphic design for 25 years. In addition to his graphic design activities, he has been practicing law since 1995. Licensed in California, Texas, Tennessee, and with the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office, he practices primarily in the areas of copyright, trademark, and entertainment law, and has written and lectured extensively on these topics. He can be reached at or by telephone at 415.546.1709.
I cannot give you legal opinion because to do so would subject me to legal recourse in this matter, something that I do not want to accept. I can however, give you my own personal opinion based on years of copyright study.
The copyright laws of the United States are the same laws that protect the design of our currency. Just as you cannot recreate the currency, you cannot recreate other designs. Just because you have a $20 bill in your pocket that you 'own' does not give you the rights to reproduce it. The same laws that protect our currency, also protect the design of the iMac and other Apple designs.
The creator or rights holder of a design owns the rights, period. The shape, look, feel and maybe more are all the property of the rights holder. If you draw a rendering of a 1956 Chevrolet without adding the words Chevrolet, Chevy or any logos you still do not have the rights to reproduce the design as you are not the owner of the design. You have simply counterfeited the original design.
Even if you own an Apple iMac you do not have the rights to reproduce it or its design in any way. You can however create your own design of a computer, but if a federal judge rules that your design looks too close to the Apple iMac and that the general public may have difficulty in seeing the difference, then you may be guilty of a copyright violation.
If I sincerely hope that I have not offended anyone with my opinion.
Hello Bill and I thank you for your insight on this. No offense taken at all.
With what you have said, is it advisable to first ask companies owning products I may desire to sketch for an approval to make a sketch? Or, don't approach this at all?
The copyright laws of the United States are the same laws that protect the design of our currency.
US currency is not protected. Obviously you can't reproduce it in an attempt to pass it off as legal tender, but that's a whole other set of laws It can be reproduced without permission though.
I just ran across a perfect example this morning of what I am referring to with my question. It's actually a site of freelance designers, photographers and illustrators.
I've attached a sketch .jpg of what's clearly an Apple eMac computer from the back. But, there are no words on it to imply that it is an Apple (product) nor eMac.
This is what I am needing to find out for certain whether or not legally I can do this, and not just of Apple products.
This is what I am needing to find out for certain whether or not legally I can do this
We cannot tell you for certain, as we are not lawyers.
For one thing it's impossible to answer such a general question when we're talking about a grey area where slight differences in the situation could mean the difference between legal/illegal. It's also more likely to come down to will get you sued/won't get you sued, and will win the case/won't win the case. It's not going to be a simple legal/illegal equation.
If you go to a lawyer you can show them the exact art you want to know about, and get a qualified, professional opinion on that exact set of circumstances.
We cannot tell you for certain, as we are not lawyers.
Speak for yourself, as I believe there are a mix of professionals in other career fields who are members here. I of course know where to go if no one here has done what I'm asking to know the consequences or legalities.
Nevertheless, I thought to ask here first because what I do know for certain is that many here have screenprinted a variety of content.
Speak for yourself, as I believe there are a mix of professionals in other career fields who are members here.
True, at least three people have claimed to have a law degree, and no doubt some more just haven't mentioned it. So to rephrase, "almost none of us are lawyers, and those who are haven't proven silly enough to give out legal advice, so we cannot tell you for certain."
More to the point, why trust someone on a forum for legal advice? Any schmuck can claim to be a lawyer, but A) it might not be true, B) that doesn't mean they're competent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdriaticBlue
I thought to ask here first because what I do know for certain is that many here have screenprinted a variety of content.
Plenty of us know the law to our own satisfaction to make decisions concerning our own endeavours, but that's useless for handing out "for certain" legal advice for others.
Speak for yourself, as I believe there are a mix of professionals in other career fields who are members here. I of course know where to go if no one here has done what I'm asking to know the consequences or legalities.
Nevertheless, I thought to ask here first because what I do know for certain is that many here have screenprinted a variety of content.
AB
I'd have to agree with Lewis that asking for definitive legal answers in a forum probably isn't the best way to go.
Even though members may have screen printed something similar, they wouldn't really know all the legal ramafications of what happened afterward or if your designs would get you sued.
The best answer here is going to come from a lawyer only.
Bill gave a good answer above that is pretty much what I've "heard" happening in other places (like CafePress).
Companies do sue over their trademarks, whether they will sue over a "likeness" or not sometimes can boil down to how aggressive the law firm they hired is.
It's possible you may get away with it for months or years, but it's also possible that your design could be seen by someone working for the company you're using the likeness of or a person on the legal team could see the design in a store or in a search and decide to take action.
I guess what I'm saying is that even if 100 members here said, "sure, it's OK, I've done it a million times", I don't know if it would be a good idea to then take that info and go ahead and run the shirts. Because in the event that you do get sued for it, all of those opinions won't work as well as one lawyer who's already consulted you on the graphic and is willing to defend your rights to use it.
We've pretty well beat this horse and it is almost dead, but...
1. U. S. Currency is protected and cannot be reproduced. You can take a photography of a stack of $100 bills and use them in an illustration or advertising, but you certainly cannot reproduce U. S. Currency. This is why a layman should not give legal advice. They are not trained in the nuances of the law or the wording in which a legal definition should be given. Also, it might be wise to concern oneself with the laws of our own country before giving a legal opinion about the laws of another country.
2. You can be sued for a 'likeness' and indeed in the United States we must move to protect our property or lose it. This is just as true of the look and feel as it is a real property such as real estate.
When Apple received the rights to their GUI Interface from PARC, it became their property. When Bill Gates stole it from Apple, they were forced to sue and did so. Eventually, they won because what Gates stole WAS a 'likeness' of the original GUI as developed at PARC. An accord was reached but it proved very costly for Microsoft as Apple had spent a fortune on lawyers to prove their case.
I am not a lawyer. I have taken law courses at University as well as a number of legal workshops for artists and business owners. Having owned my own business for over 40 years, I have spent a ton on lawyers to advise me. I have never been sued because I have very good lawyers who advise me well. Here in Austin we can ask almost any lawyer for advice for $125 (approximately 30 minutes time) and we have a group of lawyers that work for the arts that freely give a certain amount of time Pro Bono. There may be a similar arts referral group near you.
The bottom line is that no one should seek legal advise from a layman and we have a couple of popular maxims that “Only a fool would represent himself as a client;" and "Only a fool would let a layman represent their legal interests." However, before someone states that it is supposed to be, "The lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client" or other such maxim, I agree that there is more than one way to skin a cat than by sticking it's head in a bootjack and pulling it's tail.
Perhaps the best to do, is to agree that this is a T-shirt forum where we should be discussing just that and not moving outside of the original intent. To be discussing legal issues in a T-shirt forum is a bit like discussing the etiquette of proper dress at a wedding. Hmmm... should we or should we not be able to wear a T-shirt and basketball shorts to a wedding. Yes, while they have something in common, they are two distinct and separate issues and there are laws (both federal and local) in place preventing laymen from giving legal advise in the United States where this forum is located.
Again, my advise is that we refer all legal questions to a proper and licensed attorney at law. It really should be that plain and simple, folks. But, then I can only give my opinion.
Last edited by Rodney; April 21st, 2007 at 01:12 PM.
Reason: removed comments about forum guidelines and moderation. Please use the feedback forum or PM for forum suggestions/comments.
Perhaps the best to do, is to agree that this is a T-shirt forum where we should be discussing just that and not moving outside of the original intent. T
Legalities are part of the t-shirt world, so it makes sense that the topics do come up here. You don't have to worry about defining what the T-Shirt Forums should be
I agree that some legal questions are best suited for lawyers, and that's usually the response that's given when those issues come up. That won't stop the questions from being asked though.
However, there are some questions that are a bit more cut and dry that often come up. Why pay a lawyer $125 to ask if you can print the Nike logo and sell it in t-shirts if it's a pretty easy "nope"?
Also, it might be wise to concern oneself with the laws of our own country before giving a legal opinion about the laws of another country.
Given the importance of international commerce and communication, I try and be conversant in both (although due to the pervasive nature of US culture I do probably know more about US laws than our own).
I am capable of holding more than one thought you know... I'm not particularly concerned that if I learn about US currency laws I'll forget how to tie my own shoelaces.
I need to know about any legal issues (or not) with using sketch or 'edited" graphics of actual products for those with experience using such graphics.
For example, I may desire to screenprint a sketch graphic of what looks like an Apple iMac flat screen computer. However, it will not have the word "iMac," "Apple" or any Apple logo on the artwork, but it will definitely give the potential buyer the impression that it's an iMac by the look of the sketch.
This may not be a popular answer for many on this board, but as a general rule...it is better to ask forgiveness than permission.
In my experience, the worst that will happen to you is that in the unlikely event that this pisses off Apple.....they would send you a cease and desist letter. Since you obviously wouldn't want to waste the money to press this issue or fight with a company with deep pockets...you would comply and then that woulod be the end of it. Don't waste the money on an ip attorney on this issue....print your shirts....and see how it goes.
I do have a law degree, although I don't actually practice.....this isn't legal advice...merely common sense and experiences that I have encountered with regards to issues like yours.
Last edited by Rodney; April 21st, 2007 at 08:27 PM.
Reason: removed personal comments about other members
Using Sketches of Actual Products? 
