discussion: what are "ethically" produced garments? Are they really better?
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discussion: what are "ethically" produced garments? Are they really better?
Sol's website is quite disapointing... I got a CD-ROM from them so I'll dig some more info from ther to share with this forum tomorrow.
Basicaly ethical / Fair Trade means that the product is made under ethical conditions, like peolple are working in a safe and healthy environment, a reasonable nr of hours per day, have a fair payment, no women or children exploitation, etc, etc (Sol's built a Hospital for the whole population in the district where they have their plants in Bangladesh).
Organic cotton is made from cotton plants that are grown under agricultural "organic" conditions, like no pesticides, no artificial add-ons or genetic modifications, no chemical fertilizers, etc, etc. This is a kind of "top of the range" cotton for very excuisite customers. I can tell you that I they have T-shirts for less that $1.3 and their organic cotton t-shirt (only white) costs about $10!
Thank you for the explanation and i am a bit freaked. So companies that are overseas making gear cant do it because of American standards and our bull****. I understand sweatshop mentality but some of these folks need the economical injustice. I'm sorry for stating the facts but fifty cents a day is better than zero cents a day and American regulations are starving many nations. Please give any advice. I am still at a loss on the quality of cotton used. Ethical/free trade cotton in just basic cotton with a more expensive label. I think the same illegal folks pick it and dont get any more moneys for the same product of cotton. Please dont tell me that free cotton is better quality because thats just BS. Basically its an silly product sold under a higher price for stupid reasoning.
So companies that are overseas making gear cant do it because of American standards and our bull****.
And who said that? This is an individual's choice. I choose not to buy products made in sweatshops. That doesn't mean you can't.
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Originally Posted by MotoskinGraphix
I understand sweatshop mentality but some of these folks need the economical injustice. I'm sorry for stating the facts but fifty cents a day is better than zero cents a day
That's a false dichotomy. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It is possible to pay people a fair wage and thrive in business. There are thousands of companies in this industry and others using ethical business practices all over the world.
But obviously, this is still a small fraction of the overall world workforce. Many people currently do face the prospect of going to work at a sweatshop or going without. For those people, I'm glad the sweatshops are there. I hope that they are eventually replaced with safe jobs at a fair wage, but I know that this will take a while.
The fact is that many people in the developed world are willing to pay a premium for products that are produced in what they see as an ethical manner. What's wrong with fulfilling this demand in the marketplace? And why do people feel threatened or offended when others attempt to do so?
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Originally Posted by MotoskinGraphix
and American regulations are starving many nations. Please give any advice.
Please name a couple of the many nations that American regulations (environmental and/or labor standards) are starving. Okay, I got North Korea and Cuba. But that's because they are commies, not because they are not environmentally friendly. So please name a few of the others. I'm not sure who you mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoskinGraphix
I am still at a loss on the quality of cotton used. Ethical/free trade cotton in just basic cotton with a more expensive label.
Do you think that vine-ripened tomatoes you buy at a farmer's market are the same quality as the supermarket's corporate farmed, genetically modified tomatoes that are picked green and packed in ethylene to make them look like they are ripe? Probably not. Well, it is also possible to grow better cotton through better practices.
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Originally Posted by MotoskinGraphix
I think the same illegal folks pick it and dont get any more moneys for the same product of cotton.
And what makes you think that? Please name one company that does this.
Last edited by AustinJeff; May 17th, 2007 at 02:02 PM.
Re: discussion: what are "ethically" produced garments? Are they really better?
"Sweatshop free" is a fancy bra that American Apparel uses to cover the same boobs that most companies have, Indeed, American Apparel's boobs are somewhat sweatier and more gangrenous than most.
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The fact is that many people in the developed world are willing to pay a premium for products that are produced in what they see as an ethical manner. [...] And why do people feel threatened or offended when others attempt to do so?
Partly guilty consciences I think (and a host of political reasons that would be decidedly out of bounds for these forums ), but I agree that it's a very real (and annoying!) phenomenon.
But then t-shirt selling isn't really particularly ethical either (a relatively disposable garment, made from an environmentally damaging plant, often printed and dyed using chemical processes that in turn use considerable amounts of water).
Unfortunately anyone who cares about the environment and wants to feel good about themselves is in the wrong business with this one.
I believe that just the opposite is true. The problems associated with the T-shirt industry are precisely why it is an ideal place for someone who really wants to make a difference.
Environmentalism is not about perfection. It's about making things better.
There are clearly many environmental and labor problems associated with the T-shirt industry. Those people involved in the industry have a choice: either ignore the problems or do whatever small part you can to help solve them -- to help make things a little bit better.
The fact that most choose to ignore the problems doesn't mean that the incremental changes being made by the sustainable clothing movement are futile.
I believe that just the opposite is true. The problems associated with the T-shirt industry are precisely why it is an ideal place for someone who really wants to make a difference.
True, if they're actually doing anything to make a difference. But most of it's just hot air - this is an inherently bad industry, I think either solutions will be found that allow us to live our lives largely unchanged, or this industry will have to be shut down. But it places an unnecessary burden on the environment (when I say "unnecessary" I mean that literally - as human beings we do not need this industry to exist, even if you define need as "measurably improves our quality of life"), so if at some point we have to start choosing between industries we need and those that are superfluous, this one's on its way out the door.
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Originally Posted by AustinJeff
Environmentalism is not about perfection. It's about making things better.
Personally I believe it's about making things better in some significant way though, not making meaningless steps and then patting yourself on the back. The problem with that approach is that people convince themselves they're making a difference and become complacent. Unless you affect real change, there's no point feeling good about it. Something is better than nothing (I'm not saying don't do it!), but it's not cause for celebration until it actually becomes meaningful.
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Originally Posted by AustinJeff
The fact that most choose to ignore the problems doesn't mean that the incremental changes being made by the sustainable clothing movement are futile.
Too much of the so called sustainable clothing movement focuses on organic cotton: it's a horrendous misuse of their energies. Cotton is not a sustainable plant. Cotton (organic or otherwise) has no place in a sustainable clothing movement. I think a lot of activists make the mistake of thinking the problem is the pesticides: that's only part of the problem, the other part is the fact that cotton is inherently bad.
Re: discussion: what are "ethically" produced garments? Are they really better?
Agree with most of AustinJeff and Solmu's comments.
One factor that needs to be taken into account re cotton farming: it is not necessarily a water wasteful crop when grown in appropriate climates. I assume, Solmu, that you have Australian cotton farming primarily in mind when you claim that the crop "is not a sustainable plant". Certainly, it is true that cotton grown in Australia is voraciously water-guzzling and fertiliser/pesticide dependent, but it doesn't have to be this way.
Unfortunately, Australian farming is notorious for attempting to force a square peg into a round hole, and the cotton industry is a glaring case in point...the cotton industry is only made viable by diverting river systems to provide the water, and the effects of that selfish and environmentally vandalistic practice are currently being seen in the impending and utterly lamentable death of the once mighty Murray River system.
However, there are places that offer ideal climatic conditions for cotton growing - I believe that parts of India, for example, have adequate natural water supply and are moving to natural fertilisers and pesticide-free farming methods. Wouldn't this be an instance of sustainable cotton farming?
I don't think all is doom and gloom, though I share some of the cynicism expressed in the posts above. "Organic" has become a commercial buzzword, and that opens the door to fraud and misleading advertising etc, but isn't it cause for some hope that the organic movement seems to be gathering some real mainstream momentum? I think it is.
Re: discussion: what are "ethically" produced garments? Are they really better?
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Originally Posted by Ross B
I assume, Solmu, that you have Australian cotton farming primarily in mind when you claim that the crop "is not a sustainable plant".
True - I was thinking of local conditions and making overly broad generalisations from there. It's my understanding that processing the plant to be made into cloth also takes a lot of water, but I only have a weak knowledge of how cotton is turned from plant to t-shirt so I could be wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross B
I believe that parts of India, for example, have adequate natural water supply and are moving to natural fertilisers and pesticide-free farming methods. Wouldn't this be an instance of sustainable cotton farming?
I hope so. Either way we still need more hemp in the industry, and either way the dye and print processes are still bad, but it would be a considerable improvement (I think from an environmental perspective DTG could be a big improvement over screenprinting in the long term too).
Then there's the sustainability of growing cotton in India and shipping it around the world. Not really the best practice.
I guess I know enough to feel gloomy about it all, but not enough to realise that some of my concerns aren't actually valid
Re: discussion: what are "ethically" produced garments? Are they really better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solmu
It's my understanding that processing the plant to be made into cloth also takes a lot of water, but I only have a weak knowledge of how cotton is turned from plant to t-shirt so I could be wrong.
Have to admit, I have no idea at all about the process of turning cotton into fabric, or how much water it takes.
Thoroughly agree about hemp - relatively little water required, and virtually no pesticides. Don't even think it requires much fertiliser. It's blended with cotton to make T-shirts, though.
Same goes for bamboo. Then you hear that that's a problem too, because due to the increased commercial value and demand for bamboo they are now clearing old growth forest areas to grow it!! To quote Tom Verlaine, "never the rose without the prick"!
Re: discussion: what are "ethically" produced garments? Are they really better?
I don't think it is fair to assume all factories overseas are "sweatshops." Some confuse the facts and become anti-overseas as opposed to anti-sweatshops. There are many non profit organizations that inspect and certify overseas factories that maintain and follow environmental and labor laws. Factories apply for this and get inspected on a regular basis.
There is a difference in factories who torture and force workers to make products and a factory who follows the laws and employs many people who need jobs. Here is an intersting article on this: aWorldConnected.Org - Sweatshops and Globalization
I can't tell you how many times I give customers quotes for our factories in India and they are surprised to find out that's it's more than what they thought. They often say, "well, I can get a shirt for .30 in this country or that country." First, I explain the difference in quality, then I explain that we like to use factories who have been certified for complying with labor and environmental laws which will raise the price of the garment. 99% of the time, the customer won't believe me, order those .30 shirts then come back to me and order. Having employees who have benifits will pay more attention to quality than a worker who dosen't.
Re: discussion: what are "ethically" produced garments? Are they really better?
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Originally Posted by highstyleinc
Having employees who have benifits will pay more attention to quality than a worker who dosen't.
Absolutely! It seems so basic to me that treating employees well will ultimately reward the employer in maximising quality and production output due to the workers having a sense that they are appreciated and appropriately rewarded for effort. SO how come there is no much DUMB management around? I speak of my country, Australia, not of anywhere else.
I can say that in my entire working life I have NEVER had good management in any place in which I have been employed. Members of management have typically been greedy powertrippers whose focus is on the hallowed bottom line and in being right. I have never been in a workplace in which employees are rewarded commensurate with effort and the true value they bring to the workplace.
I know there is enlightened management around, who employ obvious and sensible measures like rewarding loyal and valuable employees with shares in the company, acknowledging effort with reward in the form of increased pay and bonuses, and in every such (rather rare) instance I have come across, the result is a thriving business. You'd have to say a big DUH, wouldn't you?
Seems most management is too thick - or too self-obsessed, up themselves and GREEDY - to take note, though.
Re: Ethical t-shirt Suppliers 
), but I agree that it's a very real (and annoying!) phenomenon.
