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tuvvik · March 30th, 2009

Hi Everyone,
I am seeking some advice.
I have an Epson 4880 Hybrid system, which was installed last October. Since then, I have only used the sublimation part of the printer. In the middle of January, I made one 8” x 10”, with the ChromaBlast part, just to try.
Two weeks ago, I received an order for 10 cotton tee shirts, and when I tried to use the ChromaBlast ink, I got a "clogged" message on the printer display. After the first nozzle check, I got a notice, letting me know that the nozzles are still clogged and that I was low on ink.
The second nozzle check gave me the same two messages, and the third one--the final notice--appeared as "empty cartridge" (Cyan) on the printer screen of the ChromaBlast portion.
I could not believe that it could be possible since I only made one print, yet needed to change cartridges! (Now, however, after reading comments in the form, I changed my opinion.)
I called Sawgrass. They were very nice and explained the issue: ink disappears drop by drop even without usage, and just to be sure, asked me to open the "empty" cartridge and check the ink bag, which was more than 1/3 full (I am an optimist).
After that, a Sawgrass representative decided to send me a free new cartridge, to be sure that the problem did not come from the Sawgrass side. After receiving the new Cyan cartridge, I installed it and the printer started working. I was glad, but only for about 10 seconds, because right after, I got a new "Empty cartridge" message on the Chromablast side, except now, it was the black cartridge that was empty.
I called Sawgrass again, talked to the same rep and the only advice she gave me was to buy new cartridges. I opened the "empty" black cartridge and guess what? It was much more than 1/3 full!
Tomorrow, on March 31, I’ll get new Chromoblast cartridges, but just in case, I thought I'd do a little bit of investigating, and on Thursday, March 26, I decided to compare my two empty ChromaBlast cartridges (Cyan and Black) and the full Cyan one that I received from Sawgrass.
A good friend of mine works at a pharmacy, so I asked permission to use his pharmaceutical scales to weigh the cartridges. The results were shocking:
"Empty" Black ink bag – 49 grams (1.73 oz), "empty" Cyan ink bag – 39 grams (1.38 oz), full Cyan ink bag – 107grams (3.77 oz).
I don’t know the specific density of the ChromaBlast ink. {Perhaps a 110 ml bag is supposed to have just 107 grams (including the bag weight?!!)} However, using simple math, we can see that "empty"cartridges still have 45.8% and 36.4% of ink left.
Each ChromaBlast cartridge costs $110.00, so it seems I am paying one buck for each ml! I do not want to throw away approximately $41 from each unused cartridge! I’d appreciate any advice. My detective skills may be lacking...Perhaps, all Epson original cartridges work in a similar fashion? If you have an answer, please share.
I sent this letter to Sawgarass technical support team on Friday, March 27 and up to now did not get any response (That surprise me even more then ink bags’ weight!)

The second big question: what is the true cost per print?
According to Sawgrass, the SubliJet ink cost is about 2 cents per square inch. However, according to the information they issued to explain the average imaging cost, even with heavy coverage image size 7.5" x 10", the ink price for my 4880 Epson printer
w/220 ml. cartridges will be:
54 cents – 15 cents (paper) = 39 cents (for 75 square inch image)
If so, the square inch should cost me only 0.52 cents ?!!! Where is the truth?
I don’t think I can print $960 (cost of four 220ml SubliJet cartridges) : $0.39 (ink cost per print) = 2461 images (size 7.5" x 10")
Same with the Chromablast: Sawgrass states that the average cost per ink for
100 sq inch image is 58.4 cents.
If so, for 75 square inch image (7.5" x 10" ) the ink cost for
4880 Epson printer supposed to be 44c, and I can make about:
$440 (cost of four 110 ml ChromaBlast cartridges) : $0.44 =1000 prints
As I stated before, I am an optimist, but this is too much, even for me.
According to this math, the total cost (ink + paper) with paper size 8.5" x 11"should be:
$0.44 + $0.75 = $1.19 (Sawgrass showed $1.07).
And the last question: as I understand, my Epson 4880 may show the ink usage only if operating with OEM cartridges. I received eight 110 ml. K3 Epson cartridges with my printer and have never used them. If I switch ink bags from my ChromaBlast cartridges to the appropriate Epson cartridges, will they work or not?
Thanks, everyone, for reading this post 'till the end. I appreciate any advice you could offer.
Best regards,
Viktor

helix-2000 · March 30th, 2009

I hope the new cartridges solve the problem. I Have owned my 4880 for over a year and have had to replace the dye sub cartridges after a few months. I now have to replace them again. The initial prep uses a lot of ink. I mainly due sub as well but from time to time chromoblast. Now I found that the chromobalst cartridges are empty. Gets expensive if I have to keep replacing cartridges with little usage.

Carl

Daniel Slatkin · March 31st, 2009

When we tried this system we found that between eased ink from cleanings etc... we would of had to charge 300+ a shirt. If you are not printing at least 5 or 10 items fro each side every day it seemed to give us lots of problems and waisted ink. One tip always deal directly with Sawgrass customer service directly with ink/printer problems they will log the ink you use while you are on the phone with them and replace it. I always called them not e-mailed them.

Daniel Slatkin · March 31st, 2009

One more thing the Epson Ink and the Sawgrass ink are not compatible and will gel up if mixed the only way to insert your OEM Epson cartridges is to flush your printer system.

HGE · April 6th, 2009

Viktor,

I was surprised not to see more comments on this thread. I also have a 4800 Sawgrass DA printer (I use NaturaLink only, not a hybrid) and after reading your post I open up a few old cartridges I had around and what do you know, they are similar to yours. They all vary in the amount left in the ink bag but some seem to be up to 35/40% full. If reinserted into the machine it says they are empty which I sure the chip is telling the machine. I am also going to contact Sawgrass about this. Has anyone else contacted them in regards to this issue? Also Viktor, has Sawgrass replied to your letter?
Another question would be; If you get a chip re-setter and reset the cartridge and then use one of the 35/40% ink bags inside the reset cartridge, could this create a problem when the ink bag is actually empty and the chip still thinks there is ink remaining? I imagine it would not print properly and I believe you would notice that immediately and be able to switch bags again or insert a new full cartridge? Is this possible? I cannot see wasting the ink now that I know it is there. Just thought I would hit up the forum to see if anyone else knew about this and had found a solution.
Thanks…

On-line Jerseys · April 6th, 2009

For us the best solution was to get clear refillable cartridges. If you reset a cartridge that was partially full and it thus later ran completely out of ink without the printer knowing you would most likely have to do power cleaning to get ink back into the lines thus wasting the ink you saved. Refillable cartridges opens the doors to so many cost saving options.

tuvvik · April 7th, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by HGE


	Viktor, I was surprised not to see more comments on this thread. I also have a 4800 Sawgrass DA printer (I use NaturaLink only, not a hybrid) and after reading your post I open up a few old cartridges I had around and what do you know, they are similar to yours. They all vary in the amount left in the ink bag but some seem to be up to 35/40% full. If reinserted into the machine it says they are empty which I sure the chip is telling the machine. I am also going to contact Sawgrass about this. Has anyone else contacted them in regards to this issue? Also Viktor, has Sawgrass replied to your letter? Another question would be; If you get a chip re-setter and reset the cartridge and then use one of the 35/40% ink bags inside the reset cartridge, could this create a problem when the ink bag is actually empty and the chip still thinks there is ink remaining? I imagine it would not print properly and I believe you would notice that immediately and be able to switch bags again or insert a new full cartridge? Is this possible? I cannot see wasting the ink now that I know it is there. Just thought I would hit up the forum to see if anyone else knew about this and had found a solution. Thanks…

Hi Orion,

I’m glad to see your post! Strangely, you are only a third person who wants to share his opinion about these important issues.
I don't think I am the first to recognize these problems; however, the forum surprised me with how 'quiet' everyone is. We are discussing our expenses, and if we use Sawgrass' ideology, we will have to work in the 'dark room' forewer.

Sawgrass replied to my concern and we are still e-mailing back and forth. I asked them what the correct weight of the full 110ml ChromaBlast ink bag was and whether all colors of the ChromaBlast have the same weight in the full ink bag.

The reason why I asked this was because the results I got when I checked the weight of the new Black ink cartridge were as follows:
117.9 grams (Cyan gave me 107 grams, and later on I’ll check all colors' full ink bags.)

This is the last letter I received from this company:

Viktor,
Sawgrass cartridges are filled to a plus and minus tolerance. In addition, whatever remains in your ChromaBlast cartridges above our confidential overfill is as a result of the Hybrid system not being used as it was intended. Ink was not physically flowing through your print head although the chips recorded printer actions that would normally consume these known quantities.
The inability for these chips to display ink volumes on the LCD panel is not by our design. Epson has enacted technologies within this platform that prevent carts not directly manufactured by them to act in this manner.
Again, we are dedicated to providing you ongoing support regarding the operation of your system.
Do not hesitate to contact us at (888) 253-1679 or support@sawgrassink.com if we can be of further assistance, but we will not participate in any discussions regarding weight so your questions regarding your personal experimentations and calculations will not be addressed. I would assume that you have not experienced similar concerns over ink usage and remnants for carts on the SubliJet side of your Hybrid.

As you see, they are not ready yet to discuss these issues. I'll try to find someone with expertise to figure out what the correct weight for the various colors is supposed to be: I am sure, that the 110ml of Cyan ink does not weigh 107 grams (including the ink bag). I just need more statistics.
According to the information I have, with the chip resetter, you may use some of the remaining ink, but you can not use this ink up to the last drop. In this case, air will destroy the print head and nozzles. If this occurs, the experiment may cost you a lot of money (but I personally want to buy a resetter and try).

Forum, please, wake up! What do you think about this? Did you check your ink bags, and did someone check the weight of full ink bags for Epson 4880? Did anyone have a big order where they used up all the ink in a short period of time (week, month)? How many prints did you make and what is the size of these prints?

Awaiting your replies,

Viktor

DAGuide · April 7th, 2009

Viktor,

The periodic spitting of the inks that has drained your ChromaBlast ink cartridges over time is a direct result of the Epson firmware (not Sawgrass) and happens on all Epson printers - not just hybrids. Since the Epson printers use piezo print heads, the firmware is setup to periodically spit ink out of all channels in the print head. In your case, you have an 8-channel setup. So it does not matter whether you have a 4-color dye sub setup or an 8-color dye sub setup... you are still going to spit the same amount of ink. In the end, you actually saved money by putting the ChromaBlast cartridges in than if you ran an 8-color dye sub system because the 4 ChromaBlast cartridges are cheaper than 4 sublimation cartridges. This has been posted a couple of times in the past on the forum.

The fact that you ran your printer for several months without printing ChromaBlast ink and you were able to get all your channels unclogged (i.e. saved your print head) is a great accomplishment. I just spoke to someone that did not run ChromaBlast for 1 month and now the print head is going to have to be replaced (unless changing of the dampers will resolve it ... but not likely). The ChromaBlast ink is known to clog faster than sublimation ink, inkjet transfer ink, film positive ink or Epson OEM ink. In the future, if you are not planning on printing that much ChromaBlast ink... I would strongly suggest you investing in Cleaning Cartridges (which are cheaper than ChromaBlast ink and will still allow fluid to flow through the ink lines without getting clogs) or invest in an software program (Printer Jockey or Harvey Head Cleaner) that will automatically print out ink from each channel based on a schedule you create. Otherwise, you will find yourself wasting ink from the sublimation size trying to unclog the heat transfer side.

In regards to the remaining ink in the bag, it is hard to blame Sawgrass on this one as well. Since Epson changed the firmware to the Epson 4880 to encrypt the ink levels, Sawgrass had to find aftermarket ink chips that would even allow you to run ink in the Epson 4880 printer. Some people have reported problems with the ink chips not reading properly. The Epson printer will read the ink chip (which contains ink volume) and substract the ink that is fired out of the nozzles for either printing or cleaning. Once the chip says it is out of ink, the printer will shut down. The main problem is the ink chips and the counter inside them. In regards to an ink resetter, not all chips can be reset. The Epson 4880 printer actually has a memory in it that stores a serial # for each ink chip. If the same serial # shows up with a specific # of other serial #s, it will not take it. So the manufacturers had to create a chip that you could change the serial # using a chip resetter that has several different serial #s stored inside it. This is a complex process and causes the cost of the chips to go up. Thus, the one-time-use chips are what most ink manufacturers use.

Hope this clarifies some things.

Mark

HGE · April 7th, 2009

My thoughts are; that if your ink bag is sealed how can you suck air thru it? I know there is a valve that opens and closes when you set the ink lever that prevents air from entering the lines when you put in a new cartridge. Wouldn’t this valve prevent any air from entering the lines? Plus checking the bag to see if it has reached the “empty” mark would help to prevent air entering the system (with bulk systems you have to monitor ink levels as well, kind of similar?). I’m not sure about that either, an experiment that blows a print head is a costly one at the least.
I know that the ink chips are monitoring the ink flow thru the system and if a head is clogged I assume the printer does not know it is and continues to count the ink as being used. Fine, I accept that, but how can I use the remaining ink?
So end result, just throw away ink? This seems to be a terrible solution. Do any chipsetters allow you to set the % of ink remaining I.e. a % of your choice or just 100%?
Mark, Thanks for the info, but what about the remaining ink? I’m not looking to blame Sawgrass but I’d like to know what can be done to prevent more expenditure on an already semi expensive to operate machine? I’ve read many posts about switching to a bulk system but that has a list of its own problems/requirements and for a low production shop (I don’t churn out thousands of shirts a week) cartridges seem to be beneficial to my needs. Overall I just hate seeing throwing away money and that is what that ink in the bag is, my money.

or

not sure yet...

tuvvik · April 7th, 2009

Mark,

I do not blame Sawgrass about the remaining ink amount; I just want to be sure that for my $110,
I have 110 ml of ink in the cartridge to use.
Then, it is up to me how I use up the ink.
Due to the fact that I checked the weight for two full ink bags and got different results (107 gr. and 118 gr.), I am not sure that I am getting the correct amount of the ChromaBlast ink for my money.
I am certain that 110 ml of ink cannot possibly have a weight of 107 gr (including the ink bag).

Orion,
This is the statement from Sawgrass' letter:

The ink contained within our carts are filled to a known volume. Although they are specified as 110ml and 220ml, they are actually overfilled in assurance that ink will not physically run out resulting in air pulled into the tubes that feed the print head. This condition causes missing nozzles, leading to dead end troubleshooting and can eventually "kill" a print head. For this reason there will be ink remaining in the cartridge even when the printer notes it needs to be replaced.

You’ll never now the amount of the remaining ink because the initial amount is unknown.
In addition, you don’t know how Sawgrass' chip was programmed: to use 110 ml, or 105 ml, or maybe 109 ml?

Imagine that you bought a bottle of wine, containing the Sawgrass chip

.
You will see the wine inside of the bottle, but won't be able to get any drop of it because the chip states that the bottle is empty!

As I understand, you may reset the chip to 100% only, and after, trust your judgement to make an appropriate number of prints.

Good luck and thanks again, guys, for your opinion.

Viktor

KUSTOM _DUDE · April 13th, 2009

Although not familiar with 4800 series Epson machines, I do know that ink remaining in cartidges when the printer indicates them as being empty, is a very common problem.

The solution is very simple, just buy refillable cartridges, or a continuous ink system fitted with auto reset chips. Buy your ink in bulk and save yourself money in the long term.

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