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Green ink color off - Corel X8 & Photoshop - Epson Cobra

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Old 1 Week Ago Mar 18, 2017 10:06:38 PM -   #1 (permalink)
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Default Green ink color off - Corel X8 & Photoshop - Epson Cobra

I have installed Cobra ink and the profiles Richard sent me in our new Epson WF-7610

I printed on sublimation paper for mugs from Conde

I have tried printing from Illustrator and from CorelDrawX8 and there is no difference in quality between the 2 so I don't think I'm dealing with a program issue. Both with Cobra profiles look exactly the same - wrong.

I understand (now) that the artwork I am using was created using CMYK (and should have been created using RGB) (although still confused if that's the case why all of the "rich black" numbers I receive to make this black as black can be are a CMYK formula and RGB 0-0-0 is nowhere close enough to the right black?),

Anyway, this exact file was printed on a banner and other items from another printshop in the past and was spot on with the green. It was even nice and bright on a sample mug shown here from another printing company. Although they subbed it out and could never get the re-orders correct (always came back faded green and faded black - probably going through the same problems I am!) (pic below is correct green on bottom mug and wrong green on top - from another printshop, not ours)

For some reason I am getting a really dull brownish green on my sub paper and it should be a bright happy green. 40-20-100-10 was the original CMYK.
When I changed the Illustrator color mode to RGB everything browned out. So I tried opening the file in Coreldraw and it looked good - but still printed same dull brownish green

I changed the RGB numbers to make them look really lime-ish on the screen (see photo) and used a different formula for each one, yet all 3 printed looking identical . . How could that be? Shouldn't I see a difference on the paper? (see screen shot below with exact paper print below that)

Haven't put any of them on a mug yet because I've already wasted enough paper and ink, don't want to add to the cost with mugs too. But I'm about ready to try one of the limier greens and on of the browner-greens just to see how they pop. I think my black is good and as dark as I want, but only because it's better than the other 5 I had that weren't right, so by comparison it's great! lol

Any help would be greatly appreciated as to where I'm going wrong with this color match and how the file can print on a banner right and at one printshop correct on a mug but wrong for me and the other printshop.

I don't feel it's a monitor calibration thing because the same file was used at the other printshops and printed exactly like I'm seeing on the monitor before the RGB process browns out the green.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg OriginalGreen.jpg (223.3 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0179.JPG (97.4 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg test2.jpg (222.1 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0180.JPG (97.2 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg FullSizeRender.jpg (84.4 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg actualGreenbanner.jpg (216.2 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg card.jpg (18.6 KB, 18 views)
 
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Old 1 Week Ago Mar 19, 2017 6:19:58 AM -   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Green ink color off - Corel X8 & Photoshop - Epson Cobra

Sometimes greens and blues don't come out exactly right in sublimation. Try printing a color bar with different shades of green and then putting them on something sublimatable. The colors on the paper aren't necessarily the ones you'll get after sublimating. Look at the results and you should be able to find a green that will give the colors you want on your mugs.
 
Old 1 Week Ago Mar 19, 2017 6:44:48 AM -   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Green ink color off - Corel X8 & Photoshop - Epson Cobra

Quote:
Originally Posted by gardenhillemb
Try printing a color bar with different shades of green .
Thanks for this suggestion - never done this before so want to make sure I'm clear:

Does that mean that I just make several different green formulas on my own and print them so I can see what sublimates the closest? Or is there an actual place to get a "colorbar" of greens? (sorry if that sounds ignorant, newbie just making sure I clearly understand.)
 
 
Old 1 Week Ago Mar 19, 2017 6:51:11 AM -   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Green ink color off - Corel X8 & Photoshop - Epson Cobra

Create a number of green colored squares (green fill) and line them up and or stack them and then sublimate on a chipped mug (usually have some from shipping). That way you can test a bunch of greens at one time and see which one comes out the way you want. Then you can use that green on your actual pieces.
 
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Old 1 Week Ago Mar 19, 2017 7:37:52 AM -   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Green ink color off - Corel X8 & Photoshop - Epson Cobra

Also, it is normal for it to look not as rich on the sub paper. You may want to press a mug. Are you using wraps or a press?
 
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Old 1 Week Ago Mar 19, 2017 3:58:06 PM -   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Green ink color off - Corel X8 & Photoshop - Epson Cobra

I will be using wraps in a convection oven.

I think I'll just try a couple of the samples I made and see how they turn out.

I'm still confused though as to why the image on the monitor visually "browns out" when switching from CMYK to the RGB profile (before taking sublimation ink into the equation.)
How did they other print companies get it spot on with how it looks on my monitor with the CMYK if their system also converted to RGB?
Wouldn't everyone's final output have been the brownish RGB green if everyone converted before printing?

Is it possible it's something in the Cobra profile?

Can I get a better quality if I never switch to RGB and just go straight from CMYK on the screen to CMYK on the printer? (although I did try a sample of this last night and the green is definitely brighter on the paper (not a hint of brown), but the black is more faded looking than with the Cobra profile.)

Such a learning curve! Thanks everyone for your input!
 
Old 1 Week Ago Mar 19, 2017 8:44:18 PM -   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Green ink color off - Corel X8 & Photoshop - Epson Cobra

Quote:
Originally Posted by soulshine
I will be using wraps in a convection oven.

I think I'll just try a couple of the samples I made and see how they turn out.

I'm still confused though as to why the image on the monitor visually "browns out" when switching from CMYK to the RGB profile (before taking sublimation ink into the equation.)
How did they other print companies get it spot on with how it looks on my monitor with the CMYK if their system also converted to RGB?
Wouldn't everyone's final output have been the brownish RGB green if everyone converted before printing?

Is it possible it's something in the Cobra profile?

Can I get a better quality if I never switch to RGB and just go straight from CMYK on the screen to CMYK on the printer? (although I did try a sample of this last night and the green is definitely brighter on the paper (not a hint of brown), but the black is more faded looking than with the Cobra profile.)

Such a learning curve! Thanks everyone for your input!
Never use CMYK without a RIP software or a Postscript printer.

Adobe view on this

https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/us...hotoshop1.html

"Unless you work in a commercial printing company or service bureau, you probably print images to a desktop printer, such as an inkjet, dye sublimation, or laser printer, not to an imagesetter. Photoshop lets you control how your image is printed.

Monitors display images using light, whereas desktop printers reproduce images using inks, dyes, or pigments. For this reason, a desktop printer can’t reproduce all the colors displayed on a monitor. However, by incorporating certain procedures (such as a color management system) into your workflow, you can achieve predictable results when printing your images to a desktop printer. Keep these considerations in mind when working with an image you intend to print:

If your image is in RGB mode, do not convert the document to CMYK mode when printing to a desktop printer. Work entirely in RGB mode. As a rule, desktop printers are configured to accept RGB data and use internal software to convert to CMYK. If you send CMYK data, most desktop printers apply a conversion anyway, with unpredictable results."

Epson view on this

Manage consistent colors on your prints

"Inkjet printers are RGB devices

In general inkjet printers are RGB devices; even if they use cyan, magenta, yellow and black ink for printing. Therefore send an image file that is in a RGB colour space to your Epson inkjet printer driver. The Epson inkjet printer driver will follow your driver settings to convert the image data from RGB to CMYK values and will calculate how much ink of the up to 8 inks is needed to reproduce any CMYK value. The driver takes also into account the media type you use. Generally RC based photo paper can have more ink on its surface than plain paper before ink is blurring."

Desktop sublimation printing with inkjets is done in RGB and the sublimation profiles are RGB.
 
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Old 1 Week Ago Mar 20, 2017 1:00:50 PM -   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Green ink color off - Corel X8 & Photoshop - Epson Cobra

FYI Corel has an automatic color swatch to print and then sublimate onto aluminum, frp or fabric, and then you can use these for your color matching.
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Old 1 Week Ago Mar 20, 2017 1:09:08 PM -   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Green ink color off - Corel X8 & Photoshop - Epson Cobra

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwdesigns
FYI Corel has an automatic color swatch to print and then sublimate onto aluminum, frp or fabric, and then you can use these for your color matching.
Swatches work in AI too. Generally having the profile setup correctly is sufficient in CD, however, when you need exact color matching swatching can come in handy.

Swatches are OK for vector work but for bitmaps more tedious to isolate colors and tweak the color numbers.

The Corel Macro that does that ... here is a link for that.

https://a-e-mag.com/features/6-steps...hart-coreldraw
 
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Old 1 Week Ago Mar 20, 2017 5:28:56 PM -   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Green ink color off - Corel X8 & Photoshop - Epson Cobra

I appreciate the info.

I spoke with one of the past printing companies today and received the RGB they used from the CMYK file. So I am going to try to sublimate a test with their formula, but they show 0-0-0 on the black.

Forgive my ignorance, but 0-0-0 is NOT as black as 65-40-40-100 when I print it.

So how do I formulate for the black black black with RGB to keep it from being grayed out and faded looking?
 
Old 1 Week Ago Mar 20, 2017 6:22:40 PM -   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Green ink color off - Corel X8 & Photoshop - Epson Cobra

Quote:
Originally Posted by soulshine
I appreciate the info.

I spoke with one of the past printing companies today and received the RGB they used from the CMYK file. So I am going to try to sublimate a test with their formula, but they show 0-0-0 on the black.

Forgive my ignorance, but 0-0-0 is NOT as black as 65-40-40-100 when I print it.

So how do I formulate for the black black black with RGB to keep it from being grayed out and faded looking?
In RGB colorspace 0,0,0 forces the K cart to be used, that is your true black. Any other number than 0,0,0 will use the CMY carts and create a "composite black" those CMYK numbers are likely giving you a combination of a "true" black using the K cart and at the same time a "composite black" subjectively you may like it better, but as I explained we should be working in RGB, this is well established practice in sublimation and desktop inkjet printing.

https://printwearmag.com/features/co...nt-sublimation

If you change the paper type to "Premium Presentation Matte" it will lay down more ink and your images will be denser, if that is what you desire.

I have no issues achieving a good black in Corel and staying within RGB workspaces. This is as a result of understanding color management.

Corel has an excellent guide

www.mgparrish.com/Color_Management_Guide.pdf

Mugs are the hardest thing to "dial in" and effects color hues, especially black.

If you have a regular heat press I suggest all your initial testing be done using 100% poly fabric you can get cheap in rolls from Walmart or Joann Fabric.

If you can get a good black using fabric then if you're not getting a good black with mugs then your dwell pressure and time must be adjusted. If you're not getting a good black with Cobra inks and fabrics then your setup in CD and the Epson driver are suspect.
 
Old 1 Week Ago Mar 20, 2017 6:37:58 PM -   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Green ink color off - Corel X8 & Photoshop - Epson Cobra

Quote:
Originally Posted by soulshine
I appreciate the info.

I spoke with one of the past printing companies today and received the RGB they used from the CMYK file. So I am going to try to sublimate a test with their formula, but they show 0-0-0 on the black.

Forgive my ignorance, but 0-0-0 is NOT as black as 65-40-40-100 when I print it.

So how do I formulate for the black black black with RGB to keep it from being grayed out and faded looking?
This is a guide I wrote a while back. I'm using for X8 even though the it was only up to X7 at the time I wrote. The 7610 is the same setup as the 7110, so where you see"7110" in the guide think "7610".
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Cobra Sublimation Ink Corel Draw X5 - X7 setup.pdf (1.20 MB, 10 views)
 
Old 1 Week Ago Mar 20, 2017 6:49:34 PM -   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Green ink color off - Corel X8 & Photoshop - Epson Cobra

You Rock, Mike!!

Let me read through all of this and do some tests. Many many thanks for your valuable experience!
 
Old 6 Days Ago Mar 21, 2017 8:38:39 PM -   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Green ink color off - Corel X8 & Photoshop - Epson Cobra

Just wanted to update for future readers to let them know we finally nailed it last night!

I read through the docs above mgparrish included, and everything on my end already matched.
I was scratching my head and honestly thinking about crying because I just couldn't figure out what else to do.

Then I decided to change from the Al_PP_ profile and tried the Poly_PPM

Bam! Black black black! Shiny and beautiful . . . bright green! Wooo hooo!

8 mugs later after a little learning curve on this new Oster Extra Large convection oven (I swear it doesn't heat evenly so I will be buying a thermometer to put inside to check the temps at all areas) and we had a beautiful, perfect, better than the original finished product.

Considering now whether we should switch to mug presses to keep consistent heat on every mug.
We tried each one in the left front area to keep variables at a minimum.
Using the convection setting at 400 degrees.
After 1 minute interval trial and errors it finally looks like 9-1/2 minutes for one mug is the required time.
10 minutes overcooks the back side slightly on one little corner with a perfect front side by the door.

9 minutes is perfect on the back but leaves the side closest to the door a little cloudy in one spot of the black (undercooked)

Will try 9-1/2 minutes next and I'm sure that's the balance we're looking for

But honestly a little scared to put a whole oven full in at once because that will adjust the times plus we already know the backside is hotter than the front by the door so what if the ones in the back overcook while the front undercook? (sighing) Decisions, decisions

So that's why the mug press idea is seriously at the forefront of our thoughts and is looking pretty appealing. Not really excited about popping 5 or 6 mugs in this thing and doing the minute interval trial and error and risk losing more money. We'll see though.

For now, original problem solved and I am ecstatic!

muchas gracias!!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0214.JPG (65.6 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0212.JPG (86.7 KB, 10 views)
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Old 6 Days Ago Mar 22, 2017 6:23:43 AM -   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Green ink color off - Corel X8 & Photoshop - Epson Cobra

Quote:
Originally Posted by soulshine
Just wanted to update for future readers to let them know we finally nailed it last night!

I read through the docs above mgparrish included, and everything on my end already matched.
I was scratching my head and honestly thinking about crying because I just couldn't figure out what else to do.

Then I decided to change from the Al_PP_ profile and tried the Poly_PPM

Bam! Black black black! Shiny and beautiful . . . bright green! Wooo hooo!

8 mugs later after a little learning curve on this new Oster Extra Large convection oven (I swear it doesn't heat evenly so I will be buying a thermometer to put inside to check the temps at all areas) and we had a beautiful, perfect, better than the original finished product.

Considering now whether we should switch to mug presses to keep consistent heat on every mug.
We tried each one in the left front area to keep variables at a minimum.
Using the convection setting at 400 degrees.
After 1 minute interval trial and errors it finally looks like 9-1/2 minutes for one mug is the required time.
10 minutes overcooks the back side slightly on one little corner with a perfect front side by the door.

9 minutes is perfect on the back but leaves the side closest to the door a little cloudy in one spot of the black (undercooked)

Will try 9-1/2 minutes next and I'm sure that's the balance we're looking for

But honestly a little scared to put a whole oven full in at once because that will adjust the times plus we already know the backside is hotter than the front by the door so what if the ones in the back overcook while the front undercook? (sighing) Decisions, decisions

So that's why the mug press idea is seriously at the forefront of our thoughts and is looking pretty appealing. Not really excited about popping 5 or 6 mugs in this thing and doing the minute interval trial and error and risk losing more money. We'll see though.

For now, original problem solved and I am ecstatic!

muchas gracias!!
Although there are several profiles, all for different substrates, I just use the one that gives the best color overall.
 






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